what is the goal of the crystal changes?

[chemical_art]

Normally I am a fan of meandering forum threads. but I think part of the confusion on this topic is what it is about. I myself first thought it was just do to the manufacturing changes. now I hear it is sometimes about Chuck points and dealing with them. I think that with somethin large it would help if I stopbaseline as to what the goals are so it can be viewed through that lens.

[keith.lamothe]

The main purpose of doing something else with crystal is that metal+crystal as two resources is a weak mechanic right now.  Crystal is basically metal in a different color.  So I'd like to do something more interesting with crystal.

But the specific idea I had didn't really do so well in terms of most people liking it   Given the centrality of the mechanic, it needs to be pretty unanimously well received before moving forward.

Still, other ideas for what to do with crystal would be welcome.

The only goal is to make the game more fun.  It doesn't have to do anything for or against chokepoints, or irreplaceables, or whatever.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I said this a lot but I more or less echo Keith's feelings. At first I looked at each ship's cost and thought "Cool, so there's a difference in the cost and it kind of makes sense. Like, the crystals are used for this, etc." Strictly mechanically, it really doesn't make any sense that they are two different resources. You can convert one to the other. They're both equally easy to get. They both basically do the exact same thing.
I'm like literally the only person who likes the idea of some unique way to get crystal, and using it to produce higher mark fleet ships or any kind of starships or something. The cost could be really low, not nearly on par with what current secondary resource costs are. Perhaps it's a resource that's easier to stockpile but harder to make an income out of... and you only ever infuse 2 or 3 crystals at a time with the metal to create your mark II ships or something.

Hell, depending on how it would go and how mandatory it really is to have non-mark I ships for the homeworld, you might be able to turn off CSGs entirely and still have a unique strategic challenge of grabbing planets you can get the most crystal on or plotting routes based on that so that you no longer have need of this solution to the AI HW rushing.

[chemical_art]

Ah, I see. I couple of really really big ideas that can be refined to make the idea more palatable.


1) Add some carrots. Right now my gut is telling me from these changes is I have to manage more things. Next I imagine that, because I don't see any carrots, this change is a stick, then my imagination starts to imagine my <favorite tactics> will be nerfed. I would imagine this happens for some others as well.


Actually...most of my other thoughts right now branch off this. Whether it be the thought of the complex like making two seperate caps of units, each 60% of their current value, with one needing crystal and the other without. This makes crystal important, but gives the carrot of stronger unit caps. This is just from 60 seconds as well.

Other ideas include waiting for an expansion to fund the effort: then building some new units that can only be accessed via crystal. They are not as strong as golems, but stronger then starships; They can be rebuilt but only via crystal. The AI gets these new toys, but as a result of specific (and not periodic) events.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Ahh, I get it.
It's as if this possible idea is going to basically end up being a massive widespread nerf, and that's one of the reasons that you're resisting it. Now that you mention it, I can see the crystals being an excellent bribe for hiring mercenaries.
Maybe instead of being required for basic level getting of mark II+ ships, this resource can be used as strictly some kind of bonus capturable that gives you some bonus-to-your-cap units or something. It could have a load of various uses tied to general utility as well. Spend some crystal and you temporarily transform a knowledge hacker into the same knowledge hacker that hacks at a faster speed.

[chemical_art]

Ahh, I get it.
It's as if this possible idea is going to basically end up being a massive widespread nerf, and that's one of the reasons that you're resisting it. Now that you mention it, I can see the crystals being an excellent bribe for hiring mercenaries.
Maybe instead of being required for basic level getting of mark II+ ships, this resource can be used as strictly some kind of bonus capturable that gives you some bonus-to-your-cap units or something. It could have a load of various uses tied to general utility as well. Spend some crystal and you temporarily transform a knowledge hacker into the same knowledge hacker that hacks at a faster speed.

Yep, that is it. Frame it as a bonus, where you expand strategic options, rather then limiting our current choices, and it'll be a lot better received. That doesn't mean it has some drawbacks, just make sure the overall goal is expanding ideas.

[Coppermantis]

I like the idea of essentially making metal and crystal similar to minerals and vespene gas in Starcraft, i.e., gas is more rare and only used for higher-tech units, which is essentially what Keith was getting at if I understood correctly. I didn't read the entire thread, but from what I gather the idea of having the vespene gatherers being permanently destroyable was not well recieved.

My personal idea was to have crystal automatically created at command stations only (with economic variants having a higher rate) so that you would have less of it than you would have metal, but since it's only for high-tech stuff like starships then you won't need as much of it anyway. Capturable crystal nodes would work alongside, and since you can always rebuild a command center if it is lost then you will never have a huge, permanent loss to your economy. Crystal will be harder to come by without drastically increasing AIP, but that would happen anyway if you have to capture crystal nodes and at least this way makes losing a crystal-production facility less devastating.

This also forces people to expand if they wish to support a large number of high-tech units, which could be seen as a good thing or a bad thing.

Of course, this still has the problem chemical_art brings up, that it is essentially a nerf to our economies. I'm not 100% sure that that's bad though, since it makes your high-tech stuff more valuable since the resources they are bought with are harder to come by.

[keith.lamothe]

(...)
This also forces people to (...)
(...)

And there's the problem

Adding a new core game mechanic that forces people to play differently than they do now... yea, not really a great idea   We tried that once before, if I recall.  It's optional now.

Adding optional factions/plots/whatever that require different playstyles, generally people are onboard with, though some are simply apathetic to particular ones.

[chemical_art]

Adding a new core game mechanic that forces people to play differently than they do now... yea, not really a great idea   We tried that once before, if I recall.  It's optional now.

Adding optional factions/plots/whatever that require different playstyles, generally people are onboard with, though some are simply apathetic to particular ones.

Pretty well said.

If somethings is new, and my prefered gameplay uses it? Pretty cool!

If something is new, but doesn't effect my gameplay if I don't use it? At the very least OK, sometimes great if I care about the game as a whole (this group who cares is the minority by a long shot).

Something that is new, and effects my gameplay if I don't work around it? BAD. Even if I care about the game, it is bad.

No offense Coppermantis, but not matter how you justify it, telling me my econ is nerfed from my current tactics in that I need a larger amount of planets (and thus AIP) to support current caps, when before I do not, without some sort of carrot, will always cause me to say "I don't like it". The fact you are dealing with a core, non-modifable resource makes it much more intense.

You are fighting human nature. We don't like sticks if we don't get carrots. We need a compelling case to deal with just sticks, or a carrot to go with the changes. If you simply said: "We are adding in exo waves to counter chokepoints" before adding in Fallen Spire, Spirecraft, or Golems, you would recieve a similar outcry.

[LaughingThesaurus]

What I will say is that forcing the player to expand for fancier stuff isn't necessarily a bad thing... if we're talking about more focused crystal acquisition that isn't just 'have more planets'. What that would hopefully do would be to distinguish different playstyles a little bit more, rather than forcing it a different way. You go for more capturable crystals, or a certain asteroid that you can build a crystal node on (You don't have to take all of them, and part of the asteroid gets blasted apart for less income if it gets destroyed for a bit of income loss)... and you get fancier tech to make up for the extra AIP, so you can go fight the AI with bigger guns. The problem is, we're taking away the guns the players have and earn via another limited resource, knowledge, and giving them back if they jump through another hoop.

What we need instead is some other kind of addition to the gun repertoire, or at least a clever tricksy shiny thing that crystals can be used for. This could be for upgrading odd things, like hacking rates or something. It could also be something like a crystal version of each big expensive structure that costs lots of crystal instead of lots of metal (ie, fortresses) and have faster build times by default. You know, some kind of perk for it.
There might actually be a point in another tier of stuff added via expansion alongside the crystal mechanic. Although, I fear that wouldn't be enough (and I kind of want an expansion about playing more zenith/neinzul/spire centered races rather than the default human starting stuff but... shhhhhh).

[Hearteater]

Just a few thoughts I want to get written down on the topic of crystal being a capture & hold resource (whether permanently destroyable or not).  Really intended as food for thought, both for others and myself.

* We already need to capture and hold something to build Mark IV and V units.  So crystal probably should not be a significant part of this.

* Crystal should be balanced around having just one mine, and therefor the income rate should be high enough to not waste anyone's time.  Since time isn't really an issue, a player can always wait for enough crystal from a single source, no matter how slow.  So one mine is all that should be needed.

* Following the above point, crystal should not be produced from the Home Command Station.

* Consider that crystal use on defensive tools might be better than on offense.  Lack of offense can stall you.  Lack of defense just ends the game with a loss.  Also, you need offense to (re)capture a crystal mine.

Alternate thoughts on Crystal rather than being metal but gathered differently.

* Maybe Crystal mines don't produce anything per second; just controlling them allows you to have special unit.  The more mines, the more you can have.  Sort of like Cities in FS.

* Maybe Crystal could be used to produce certain units over cap.

* Maybe Crystal could be used to active some generically useful ability, like a Starcraft Stim Pack for fleet ships.

* Maybe Crystal Mines could power special units/structures creating a continuous expenditure rather than a one-time up-front cost:
-- Crystal Force Shield: when it takes damage you lose crystal instead.  Advantage over a normal shield is crystal can be gained even while it is under attack.
-- Worm Hole Disrupter: While powered up, consumes crystal every second, but nothing can travel through any nearby worm hole in either direction.
-- Warp Space Burrower: Temporarily becomes a one-way worm hole leading to a target system.  Costs crystal for each of your ships that travels through it and increases the more hops away it is going.  Might require a target unit to warp too, so you can just cheaply shoot scouts everywhere.
-- Crystal Warhead: Stealthed Rams that spend 1 crystal to deal X damage to the target they hit, always spending just enough Crystal to destroy their target if possible.
-- Crystal Turret: A powerful HBC-like turret, possibly with a per-system cap instead of global.  However, every shot costs Crystal.
-- Crystal Supply Depo: Generates supply in a system even if supply can't be normally be generated there.  Costs crystal/second.  Run out of crystal and you lose supply in that system.

[chemical_art]

I like the idea of new units with caps tied with the number of mines. It provides a carrot to expansion, reduces stockpiling, and in general encouragesnactions.

[chemical_art]

Typing on phone so cannot edit.

On the other hand, permanently losing crystal mines would sting a lot more. Temporary loses would sting more too unless the units are hoarded, but that temporary sting would be.a.good one.

[Hearteater]

Just a question for you, and anyone else that has a problem with permanently losing crystal mines:

If Crystal Mines ONLY are used for new special units, and have no effect on anything else, do you have a problem with losing them permanently?  In other words, if you never take a crystal mine, you could play the game exactly the way it is now.  But if you do, you have new toys to play with provided you can hold the mine.

[keith.lamothe]

Just a question for you, and anyone else that has a problem with permanently losing crystal mines:

If Crystal Mines ONLY are used for new special units, and have no effect on anything else, do you have a problem with losing them permanently?  In other words, if you never take a crystal mine, you could play the game exactly the way it is now.  But if you do, you have new toys to play with provided you can hold the mine.

Bear in mind that when the player gets new toys, eventually it ends up reflected in how well people are doing at various difficulties, and generally that leads (by popular request, often) to a buff to the challenge level.  So not using the toys at all would leave you a bit behind the curve.  But the curve is pretty granular, if you're willing to move up or down as needed.