Author Topic: What is the eye mechanic?  (Read 12402 times)

Offline orzelek

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2010, 01:55:10 pm »
I'm not sure where all of this is going - but anyone tried to attack high mark worlds with small number of fleet ships and had any luck with that?

AI War was about large battles in 3.xxx - it seems that we are going to cloak few star ships and go sniping battles quite quickly. Unity hit that large battles with it's own stick a bit - AI Eyes are to prevent more of them (or provoke if you trigger them) and you want to further reduce battles?

Similarly idea presented here:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1017

All of this will lead to a game that you need to cloak bunch of starships and fly around sniping things because you will get destroyed otherwise (or pay with AIP). And your fleet will be nicely sitting on your world waiting for AI ships that you freed to come. Is that what we are supposed to do?

All that nice anti blobbing ideas are quite forgetting about how power full units AI can have on a planet and that to fight Mk III+ units (when you don't have high mark units yourself) you are forced to outnumber them.

Offline x4000

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2010, 02:41:11 pm »
Okay -- for now, no changes to this, I'm going to focus elsewhere.  I think that the current Eye mechanic isn't too distressing to anyone (the worst complaint has been "I dislike seeing it so often with turtle AI Types,"), and overall people seem to have really liked it.  The discussion of buffing the Eyes seems to have really stressed a lot of folks out, though, and that's something that was not my intent and it's also not my intent to get hugely hung up on the eyes or the de-blobbing at the moment (it's not a major part of my goal for the next expansion, nor it is a bugfix, etc).

To be clear about a few points:

1. It's not my goal to remove all large fleet battles from the game.  I really don't like it when folks take something to the logical extreme and assume that's where I'm heading -- please don't do that!  As I'd noted before, we're talking about a max of 30% of the planets except with the really defensive AIs here.

2. The whole point of this is to encourage MORE variety, rather than less.  Would this mean that planets with a certain type of Eye would have to be taken down in some specific manner?  YES!  That's true of most of the big weapons the AI uses, and is sort of the point: more variety, more need to think outside the box, more strategies to try.  Is fighting the AI with a smaller fleet harder and different?  Quite often, yes -- hence the added interest of the Eyes.  Is fighting the AI with a huge fleet also interesting?  Of course -- hence why Eyes are never going to be dominant or everywhere.

3. The reason why the Eyes are fixed in position is because I want the players to be able to size up the planet and then formulate a strategy for taking it down.  If the Eyes roam around, that takes out the strategic thinking and just puts in a seemingly-random chance of bad consequences for the players.

4. Having the Eyes only affect a localized area of the planet also is interesting in some respects, I certainly see the motivation for that, but it's computationally intense for the CPU and also something that I think would be complex to the point of detriment.  But taking that sort of idea, where there is some sort of ship-that-spawns-other-ships when the players are in firing range of it, does strike me as a cool thing to do at some point down the line.


In short: calm down, please, and let's table this for now.  Just discussing this really stirred up a hornet's nest, so I'm not about to try implementing anything along these lines when we're on such a tight schedule for the next expansion.  There are much cooler things in store that I think will see more universal appeal. :)
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Offline Zeba

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2010, 03:23:46 pm »
How about having the eye spawn guardians too?  :D

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2010, 03:50:54 pm »
its not supposed to completely remove human fleets, just be a deterrent..

my issue, and I think some others, is that until you pick up a fleet of mk3+ units, the only powerful small number units you HAVE are starships. Which basically forces you to run stairship raids on them.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 04:12:24 pm by Lancefighter »
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Offline Zeba

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2010, 04:06:29 pm »
To me the eye is not a challenge at all though that might be due less to the eye mechanics and more to do with only playing on difficulty 7 and the current op nature of a max merc seeded fighter and bomber blob that has mrs and ff bearer support. Seriously, that tactic totally demolishes literally everything on the current build. Just before my last save game I sent it out to nueter a rather nasty mk IV border world that had an eye and out of the 1060 ships that started the assault 983 made it back alive after totally wiping out the entire system sans the command station. Even the 400 million hp wormhole guards died in seconds to its awesome might.  :o

Might have to bump up the difficulty to 7.6 and add in some hybrid hives to see if it holds up then. ;p

edit; questionable descriptive term changed. =)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 04:13:12 pm by Zeba »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2010, 04:10:30 pm »
Yea, if you have enough resources to support a full cap of mercenary ships, something is a bit off somewhere ;)

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Offline orzelek

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2010, 04:29:42 pm »
Zeba which resource bank did you rob to have full caps of mercenary fighters and bombers... ?

I can have full resources from time to time - but they get used fast after next attack to rebuild casualties (poor mirrors die for the rest of fleet and they aren't cheapest).

Offline Zeba

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2010, 04:31:07 pm »
Yea, if you have enough resources to support a full cap of mercenary ships, something is a bit off somewhere ;)
I too unlocked both economic stations with my starting knowledge. ;p

Seriously, between those babys and the luck of getting a ZPG two jumps from my homeworld along with the trader bought one I am simply swimming in materials and energy. Full merc cap for all ships along with all starships and fleet ships at max cap plus at least 4000 relcaimed ai ships of various mark and make and I still have nearly 2 million energy left.  :o

But even if I didn't have all that extra income the same fighter/bomber/mrs/ff bearer blob could be formed with just a fraction of the current amount as you rarely loose any of the merc ships or higher mark ships. I would assume its completely due to the ff bearer buffs as they are the ones that make the tactic viable with such low losses. In a test without them the same blob loses effectiveness fairly quickly due to attrition from the eyes constant reinforcement of the system.

I'm going to now try to play the current map as a total takeover leaving only the last two ai homeworlds and see how far it gets me.  8)

Zeba which resource bank did you rob to have full caps of mercenary fighters and bombers... ?

I can have full resources from time to time - but they get used fast after next attack to rebuild casualties (poor mirrors die for the rest of fleet and they aren't cheapest).
Stick a merc factory in a system all by itself near your frontlines and set a mk I engineer or two to assist it. Turn it on and then go play the game and after a bit you will find a nice little max force of merc fighters and bombers awaiting you that has little impact on normal production but totally demolishes the ai once you get to the required force levels. This works best in conjunction with a full cap of ff bearers and mrs though as without them the attrition rate is to high for normal operations but they are still very very nice for chokepoint defences and other rear guard duty.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 04:37:42 pm by Zeba »

Offline x4000

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2010, 05:26:44 pm »
The cost of mercs in the new version are also affected by the cost of the mark IV units going up, so that strategy is pretty much going out the window shortly... ;)
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Offline Zeba

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2010, 05:45:40 pm »
The cost of mercs in the new version are also affected by the cost of the mark IV units going up, so that strategy is pretty much going out the window shortly... ;)
My blatant refusal to download the next patch will overcome your nerf to my merc blob tactics!  :D

Well, at least until I steamroll this map just for the lulz.. ;p


Oh oh! That reminds me. Can we get a feature to save the current map setting for a given seed as a 'pre-game' save function? That way I can save a seed I like at the setup screen level and can go back to load it later and change options at will to start another game with the new changes. Currently when I run across a seed I like I have to copypasta it to notepad to re-copypasta back into the game to play it again with new options.  :'(

Offline Gallant Dragon

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2010, 01:06:25 am »
Maybe eyes can summon guardians from adjacent AI planets?
It's just carriers all the way down!

Offline Winter Born

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2010, 03:14:56 am »
snip

Oh oh! That reminds me. Can we get a feature to save the current map setting for a given seed as a 'pre-game' save function? That way I can save a seed I like at the setup screen level and can go back to load it later and change options at will to start another game with the new changes. Currently when I run across a seed I like I have to copypasta it to notepad to re-copypasta back into the game to play it again with new options.  :'(

put in mantisbt plz

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2010, 08:53:57 pm »
I'd love to have more than one type of eye.

30% of planets having an eye is kind of annoying when you combine it with other possibilities.  Attacking a planet with an Eye, a Golem, and backed up by an adjacent Raid Engine is a gigantic kick in the balls.

See also: starfleet commander AI + eyes, bleeech!


Offline UberJumper

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Re: What is the eye mechanic?
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2010, 09:11:11 pm »
I like mechanic.

I just wish it wasn't on 3/4th's of the enemy planets.