What do you want the Champion to be?

[Wingflier]

If you are not waiting long, it is because you are not using its abilities. Which I think is a valid strategy in its own right.

Well there is really only one ability worth using (in my experience) which is the shield. This is the other major problem with the Champions in my opinion.

But yes, sometimes when you are microing several fronts at once, your Champion dies when it still has plenty of energy to use. Or when your champion is in a Nebula scenario that lasts 45 minutes or more, you'll forget about it and he'll die, then you'll notice him just sitting on your Homeworld.

As I said before, even if it dies with absolutely 0 energy (pretty rare for me), it only takes about 10 seconds to respawn. In a game that typically lasts 10 hours or more, I would hardly consider this to be relevant.

[Toranth]

If you are not waiting long, it is because you are not using its abilities. Which I think is a valid strategy in its own right.

Well there is really only one ability worth using (in my experience) which is the shield. This is the other major problem with the Champions in my opinion.

But yes, sometimes when you are microing several fronts at once, your Champion dies when it still has plenty of energy to use. Or when your champion is in a Nebula scenario that lasts 45 minutes or more, you'll forget about it and he'll die, then you'll notice him just sitting on your Homeworld.

As I said before, even if it dies with absolutely 0 energy (pretty rare for me), it only takes about 10 seconds to respawn. In a game that typically lasts 10 hours or more, I would hardly consider this to be relevant.

The bigger problem with the Champion dying during scenarios is that the Champion is usually the critical factor preventing your allies from losing.  The couple of minutes it takes to respawn, re-equip, and travel again to the nebula is a couple of minutes that your allies are most likely losing.  That's where the tension comes in, not because of some potential resource cost.  The Malfunctioning Gatlings and Ravenous Shadow scenarios are great examples of this.

Outside of the scenarios, you are correct - there's no drawback to losing a Champion.  But aside from the uniques like Golems, there's no real drawback to losing ANY ship.  And I don't see a problem with that.

[Wingflier]

utside of the scenarios, you are correct - there's no drawback to losing a Champion.  But aside from the uniques like Golems, there's no real drawback to losing ANY ship.  And I don't see a problem with that.

Erm...what?

There is a drawback to losing ships, you have to pay money to rebuild them. This is doubly true for Starships and such.

If you think that having to rebuild your fleet, with resources, is not a drawback, then I guess we're on the same page

[Cinth]

Isn't that more like time spent waiting?  Resources being infinite and all

[Wingflier]

Isn't that more like time spent waiting?  Resources being infinite and all

Depends on the settings being used. If 1/10, then it doesn't cost anything to rebuild, it's free like now.

If 2/10, it's still pretty cheap.

At 10/10 yes, you're going to spend a lot of time waiting.

On the other hand, at 10/10 your Champion will be so powerful that, if used correctly, can save you time in other areas such as raiding, defending, and succeeding on big attacks.

In that regard it's like a Golem. Don't you have to spend a lot of time waiting for your Golems to repair after big engagements? Sure, and that's why some people don't like them and turn them off. There's really no major difference.

[Cinth]

It seems to be dependent on the volume of AI ships and the losses you take.  If I play with golems on, I only use them for HW assaults.  At that point, they are expendable.

[Wingflier]

It seems to be dependent on the volume of AI ships and the losses you take.  If I play with golems on, I only use them for HW assaults.  At that point, they are expendable.

And that's certainly one way to use them. But if your HW assault fails, then you've now lost a critical resource that can't be rebuilt (or which will take quite a long time to repair). This all assuming you don't savescum.

The point being that not all players like this kind of risky mechanic, but from what I've seen the majority of people keep Golems-Hard on. I think that's very telling about what players are willing to put up with in terms of extra risks and resources costs in order to harness awesome power.

[Cinth]

I don't play with them.  I don't like playing with stuff I can't replace.  With the amounts of ships the AI throws at me, golems are way to frail.

[chemical_art]

The point being that not all players like this kind of risky mechanic, but from what I've seen the majority of people keep Golems-Hard on.

I'm not sure if that is done due to their benefit or for their extra challenge.

Right now, given the inflation of everything else, golems aren't so mighty. Handy, yes, but Iy at 9/9 str 4/10 that they are more a liability then asset, and even on 8/8 for me it still easier to go without.

Golems also suffer from the problems of non-replacables. Them being movable and relatively tough helps, but due to AI targetting logic in any serious fight I can only leave them on a world for two or three volleys before they are severally wounded and have to retreat.

[Wingflier]

The point being that not all players like this kind of risky mechanic, but from what I've seen the majority of people keep Golems-Hard on.

I'm not sure if that is done due to their benefit or for their extra challenge.

Right now, given the inflation of everything else, golems aren't so mighty. Handy, yes, but Iy at 9/9 str 4/10 that they are more a liability then asset, and even on 8/8 for me it still easier to go without.

Golems also suffer from the problems of non-replacables. Them being movable and relatively tough helps, but due to AI targetting logic in any serious fight I can only leave them on a world for two or three volleys before they are severally wounded and have to retreat.

Hmm, I still think Golems are in a good place personally. They definitely are more fragile now with all the new AI changes (and especially with some of the new AI difficulty scenarios in the new expansion), but if used correctly can still be game-changers.

Regardless, Champions would technically be on a different level than Golems, being replaceable even after they die, and probably no where near the cost. This all depends on the setting you use, of course.

[Cinth]

Well, as far as firepower goes, Champ BBs should be about golem level of fp.

[keith.lamothe]

On golems, I think if you're using them for straight-up combat power on 9/9 or higher they're more of a liability on Hard-4/10.

Where they shine is the utility-player roles; not trying to overwhelm by pure DPS but rather by the kind of silliness you can pull off with a Widow or Artie or whatever.  The Botnet being something entirely other, of course.

Same deal with the Spirecraft, except moreso.  Some people think they're massively underpowered (and in some ways their stats really do need some updating) for the cost of the counter-exos, but others use a fairly wide variety of them in utility roles that are massively game-changing, and in some cases even game-ending (in victory).

FS fleets and 8-Champ fleets are really the places where superweapons can just provide sheer overwhelming firepower, without particularly caring about alternate utility (though the champs certainly have it).

[chemical_art]

Golems being frail goes right back around toward the issue of irreplaceable. You don't have a problem with them till you lose them.

When golems were not frail, even relatively, then you rarely noticed their irreplaceable. Now you do. Given how AI HW defenses hard counter so many of them (arty and hive) and all the others are directly targeted, they all now frail.

If anything, with the gluttony of irreplaceable units, champions should NOT go to far like the already very numerous options of irreplaceable and/or costly in one way or another units.

The complaints about champions, for me, all stem back to how boring/repetitive/grindy powering them up is after playing with them several games. In a way the same about FS. The difference is that Fallen Spire gives you a direct win condition if you pursue it fully.

[Toranth]

Outside of the scenarios, you are correct - there's no drawback to losing a Champion.  But aside from the uniques like Golems, there's no real drawback to losing ANY ship.  And I don't see a problem with that.

Erm...what?

There is a drawback to losing ships, you have to pay money to rebuild them. This is doubly true for Starships and such.

If you think that having to rebuild your fleet, with resources, is not a drawback, then I guess we're on the same page

Isn't that more like time spent waiting?  Resources being infinite and all

Precisely this - refleeting is time.  Assuming the loss of the fleet doesn't let the AI kill you, you will get back to where you were.  This includes this 2M m+c Mk V starships and Spire Capital fleets.  But when you lose a Golem, or fail a scenario, it's gone forever.  Failed scenarios cost you unlocks, XP, and can make later scenarios harder.  And they can even kill you, given the right (wrong?) circumstances.

Now, if you make Champions cost to rebuild, it's also just time.  But that's yet another whammy to losing a scenario.  And if it's a major cost, say for BBs, that makes it even worse.
Remember, Champions hit hard - BBs can pull off twice the DPS of a golem - but are fragile. 


Edit:

When golems were not frail, even relatively, then you rarely noticed their irreplaceable. Now you do. Given how AI HW defenses hard counter so many of them (arty and hive) and all the others are directly targeted, they all now frail.

If anything, with the gluttony of irreplaceable units, champions should NOT go to far like the already very numerous options of irreplaceable and/or costly in one way or another units.

Yup.  Fragile and irreplacable or fragile and expensive are not fun.  And remember that the AI gets Nemesis too, and lots of them.

The complaints about champions, for me, all stem back to how boring/repetitive/grindy powering them up is after playing with them several games. In a way the same about FS. The difference is that Fallen Spire gives you a direct win condition if you pursue it fully.

Well, before the Nemesis, the Champions also gave a Win condition... Really, a few waves of Battleship Champions was easily enough to kill any AI HW.

[chemical_art]

Well, before the Nemesis, the Champions also gave a Win condition... Really, a few waves of Battleship Champions was easily enough to kill any AI HW.

True enough.

That said, if at the end of the mission that gives the BB, if an additional reward was given that directly helps endgame (say, a "lever" that when pulled destroys a random brutal guard post on each AI HW) then that would help give closure.