Author Topic: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?  (Read 2450 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« on: June 13, 2013, 12:43:57 am »
Has anyone else noticed that starships in very early game waves (1st and maybe 2nd) aren't very fun? They don't do all that much damage (except for the plasma siege starships), but they take FOREVER to kill given the small-ish amount of ships you can afford (energy wise) during this time, especially before the first planet. Even a half cap of bombers (which is rather stressful on a single planet energy "grid") take forever to take out even a Mk. I fleet starship. With plasma siege starships, this is even worse, as then they can take out your docks (and thus your queues and rally points) long before your ships (even your bomber ships) can "scratch it to death", but not really pose any true threat to you (one plasma siege starship can't really take out a home command station under a forcefield in any reasonable amount of time). Even adding a bomber starship or PSS or both doesn't really speed up the process enough to bring it out of "grind" territory (again, for very early game only)

Not really sure what to do about this though, as starship durability, while rather high, seems about right for mid to late game. (though I do think they could use a bit of a HP nerf anyways)
Maybe disallow starships in the very first wave? (Except for starship commander, which should get what other AIs get starship wise in waves for their first wave)

Offline LordSloth

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2013, 01:10:30 am »
Frankly, on -7- I don't feel they take unbearably long or anything. I usually have a full cap of bombers, frigates, and fighters by the ten minute mark,  and am then deciding which Mk2 to focus on or starship to build. I don't know why you're having quite so much energy trouble.

On the other hand, encountering the Starfleet Commander with three bonus starships is quite mean.

Offline Qatu

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2013, 01:25:56 am »
 Yeah i wish starfleet commander and heroic got toned down for their first 30 minutes as i love to play them after that but before then they are just so frustratingly unfun.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2013, 01:30:18 am »
Frankly, on -7- I don't feel they take unbearably long or anything. I usually have a full cap of bombers, frigates, and fighters by the ten minute mark,  and am then deciding which Mk2 to focus on or starship to build. I don't know why you're having quite so much energy trouble.

On the other hand, encountering the Starfleet Commander with three bonus starships is quite mean.

Probably because I have a very high energy buffer combined with I am playing difficulty 8. Still, a cap of fleet ships takes a long time to take out a starship, not to mention two of them.

Offline Histidine

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2013, 02:21:14 am »
Can't speak for Starfleet Commander/Heroic/Spire Hammer, but miniforts mess up the 1-2 low level starships pretty good.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2013, 02:30:15 am »
Starfleet Commander is harder than Spirehammer. Vs Starfleet Commander the first waves are the hardest. If you survive those you're good to go. I don't think Starfleet Commander needs to be nerfed but as I've said before.. it should be moved to "Harder" AIs category.

I just did a small test vs 10DiffStarfleetCommander/10DiffStarfleetCommander and I did stop the first waves. As soon as I destroyed the first wave from the first AI.. the second AI sent it's wave. So I had about 1 minute to rebuild and repair everything that was destroyed. The second wave was much harder than the first one since it had like 2 Plasma Siege Starships and 5 Flagships. Both waves had 2 Spire Starships which do pretty nasty DPS.. they have a bad habit of wrecking Force Fields.

Anyway here's a save file right after I stopped the second wave. Check out my defenses, unlocks and stuff so you can stop those waves too. So.. again.. I don't think Starfleet Commander needs to be nerfed but as I've said before.. it should be moved to "Harder" AIs category.

EDIT: I think the mistake a lot of people make is building Starships too early in the game. Starships are powerful but they don't bring a lot of bang/buck. I used to do that too. Starships also use a lot of energy so you will run out of that too. As you can see here..

I've built caps of the best "starship countering turrets" and almost full caps of all fleet ships. Before the first wave I was missing like 10 Bombers and Missile Frigates. Otherwise full caps.

I wouldn't have needed those Gravitational Turrets.

OH.. and yes I AM using Attractor Drones^^ those things seems to be really good. I'm going to have to try Attractor Drone+Fighter+Counter-Missile Turret combo at some point!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 02:46:39 am by Kahuna »
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2013, 10:46:57 am »
Thanks guys. I was wondering if this was a general feeling or of it was just me, hence the question mark at the end of the thread title.

Now I realize I'm probably just trying to maintain a too large of an energy buffer for the very early game, which is unnessecarily constraining my forces to fend off the first wave.

I will take this into consideration and try reducing my energy buffer for the first wave and see if it makes this "feel" better. :)

Offline Diazo

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2013, 11:09:21 am »
EDIT: I think the mistake a lot of people make is building Starships too early in the game. Starships are powerful but they don't bring a lot of bang/buck. I used to do that too. Starships also use a lot of energy so you will run out of that too. As you can see here.

This.

I love Starships and usually run quite a heavy Starship fleet, at least in the mid game.

However, the only starships I build early are the Flagships and that is for the Attack Boost they give my fleet, the other starships have to wait until I have a few systems under control so I can afford to build them without cratering my economy. (Either resources or energy economy can crash easily on starships.)


On the actual topic of the thread, I'm not sure.

Starships were re-worked to give them the 'survivability' trait to make them nice when under player control.

That means that the AI gets the same 'survivability' when starships are under it's control.

Having said that, this survivability is perhaps magnified too much when you get a high mark starship to the face in the early game for whatever reason as you don't have the fleet to kill it quickly.

The two big culprits for this are threat and raid engines. What about adding two more rules to map generation?

- No Mk IV worlds adjacent to a human homeworld
- No Raid Engine within 2 hops of a human homeworld (so 3 hops the closest a raid engine could be).

This would allow a player to be guaranteed the ability to capture at least one more planet (probably 2 or 3 on most maps) before they ran into a mechanic that made them face a Mk IV or V starship. (I don't consider a Mk III starship OP enough to be a problem against the fleet a single human world can support.)

Thoughts?

D.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2013, 11:51:26 am »
Can't confirm, my Zevastators do their job too well.
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Offline LordSloth

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2013, 12:29:40 pm »
Diazo:

I approve.

TechSY730:
Yeah, I only worry about energy buffers once I've taken a second planet, maybe a third, and certainly once I've established even a basic whipping boy/chokepoint. When your only system is your homeworld, losing that Energy Collector is the least of your concerns. I never run into buffer/energy failures until after I've expanded enough to bulk out on MK1 & 2 Fleetships, and have enough m/c to start needing Starships to take on hardened systems. In other words, the second ring of expansion or later.

I don't do an especially low AIP or high AI difficulty # game, however, and run with Civilian Leaders and Fallen Spire most of the time. My usual build:

Loop stardock on 10 scouts, 50 fighters, 10 bombers, 10 frigates. Send out fighters in batches of 24 or so (thank you, L) to take out warp gates depending on mark and how close the wormhole is to my command. Leave bombers and frigates at home till after the first wave to conserve resources and build time. Once that caps, I usually unlock MK2 of my triangle ships and only build one type of that at a time if I know enough about my AI opponent. If not, a fairly equal mix weighted towards cheap fighters mk2, just in case my mk1s are wiped on warp gate/tachyon sentinel ops. On rare occasions I will unlock just one of the triangle at mk3 right off the bat as well, but usually I save some leftover K for a starship, tachyon turrets, etc.

Thanks to avoiding starship construction and the boosted starting resources, I can afford to rush my turrets once the wave is announced and I've narrowed down the avenues it can approach. Before then I slap 1-4 tractor turrets down on each wormhole just for the convenience of handling threat, especially if I've a high mark neighbor. When the wave hits  - and I'm only facing the one starship - I focus on the starship before the fleetships.

That said, things get much worse if you're facing at least two starships or you're facing a counter-attack wave. I wouldn't oppose some restrictions to AI starships in the early game, but I second moving Starfleet Commander to "Hard" if nothing else is done. Actually, I find the waves aren't what killed me - the retaliation from venturing into a Mark IV world with multiple starships can be brutal if you're not expecting it, and can't support your own firepower to eat through that health.

If it isn't quite as hard as the rest of the hard AIs, I'm sure some devious minds could make some evil suggestions.

Ignoring the more advanced analysis of unit stats scaling, the Starfleet Commander is twice as dangerous as it used to be, more if you take into account cap of one starships. There are various factors on each side of difficulty from the home FF gravity effect to the Plasma splash...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 12:37:58 pm by LordSloth »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2013, 12:50:39 pm »
I'd actually say the following rules should be added:

1. No defensive starship spawns next to human homeworlds, for similar reasons defensive guardians are not allowed next to human homeworlds
2. No Mk. IV planets next to human homeworlds, now that guard posts actually lay on the pain
3. No raid engines within 3 hops of a human homeworld (so you don't get raid engine'd just trying to take your first planet)
And less critically
4. No Mk. N fortresses N-1 hops from a human homeworld (so no Superfortresses within 4 hops, no Mk. III fortress within 2 hops, no Mk. II adjacent to homeworld, Mk. I adjacent to homeworld is fine)

Offline Bognor

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2013, 02:12:29 am »
I second moving Starfleet Commander to "Hard" if nothing else is done.
Thirded.  I'm early in a 9/9 game of Radar Jammer-Spire Hammer / Attritioner-Starfleet Commander, and so far the Starfleet Commander has been the most troublesome, even though the other three AIs are categorised as hard.

For some reason Starfleet Commander is already categorised as a "Harder" AI on the wiki, but still "Moderate" in-game.
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Offline tmm

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2013, 03:02:42 pm »
On a (similar) subject, after the buffs, it seems to me that the danger posed by waves is much more about the starships than fleetships now.  Perhaps the way that starships are added to waves should get a look?

anthony2323

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2013, 04:26:19 pm »
I just unlock the Heavy Beam Turrets I-IV at the start and have no trouble for a while.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Very Early Game Wave Starships not fun?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2013, 05:09:11 pm »
On a (similar) subject, after the buffs, it seems to me that the danger posed by waves is much more about the starships than fleetships now.  Perhaps the way that starships are added to waves should get a look?

I'm not sure. I think there are two things going on here.

First (barring stuff like the Starship Commander), this is only in the early game. By even AIP 50 (two planets captured), the fleet ship component of a wave is significantly more dangerous then the starship that accompanies it. However, because of their durability, starship are usually the last thing to die when a wave attacks so that it giving the starships a perception of them being more dangerous then they actually are. There's a big difference between "I've been attacking you for 2 minutes and you are still not dead!" and "You are alive because I've been killing other ships for 2 minutes."

The second thing is that if your defenses can't handle a single starship with a wave by the 10 minute mark, you have other issues that lost you the game and the starship with the wave is just the thing that actually killed you. Then by the 60 minute mark, the fleet ship part of the wave has usually gotten big enough that the starship is kind of an afterthought.

Now, I need to actually sit down and see at what AIP the AI starts sending multiple starships with a wave. If the wave costs were not tweaked when the starship changes were made then I can see an argument being made for increasing the costs of starships when the AI populates a wave.

I'm not saying I support such a change at this point, I have not run a game up the AIP scale for a while (being playing around with new features) so I'm actually not sure if I support that change or not at this point.

D.