Warheads in multi-homeworld games.

[Lord Of Nothing]

So, something that's been vaguely nagging at me for a little while:
Warheads in multi-homeworld games. Specifically, the AIP cost. Obviously, correct me if I'm wrong, but (since the AIP cost doesn't scale down with homeworld numbers, the damage doesn't scale up with homeworld numbers, and AIP matters just as much per homeworld with more homeworlds)- Warheads 'real' cost- the increased threat due to increased AIP- is multiplied by the number of homeworlds with no compensation. Is this just part of the balancing- one of the cases where multi-homeworld isn't better- or should something be changed?

Interested to know what people think. 

[Alex Heartnet]

If you nuke a planet, does it matter if the potential game-ending fleet there consists of 10,000 ships (from 1 homeworld) or 80,000 ships (eight players)?  Similarly, EMPs and Tachylons don't care how many ships are at the target planet.

The tooltip for unit cap scaling suggests using Ultra Low unit caps for 8-player games.  This affects the power of Lightning/Armored warheads and other AOE weapons.  AFAIK this setting does not change the size of area-of-effect attacks, meaning you can catch a larger % of enemy forces with a single lightning warhead or siege starship salvo.

[Cinth]

I don't see how this is a problem.  AIP increases impact every player regardless of the number of HWs.  Multi HW games get a larger response per AIP bump but have more forces available to counter it. 

I would question why you needed to use a warhead to begin with and see if there might be something you needed to do to prevent having to use them.  Maybe time to examine your play to see if you missed something important. 


Mind you, I play 16 homeworld games as a standard.  I have run into times when I could use a warhead, but those times were usually the result of my play (not clearing threat or something).

[Alex Heartnet]

I would question why you needed to use a warhead to begin with

"AI Homeworld", "Showdown Device", "Quadratic AI Type", and "All minor factions set to 10/10" immediately come to mind.

The Quadratic in particular seems like you could just hold off by using a MKI nuke against each wave when you are at the point where you can't fight them off conventionally.  And the one after that, and after that, and after that...even the MKIVs at 1,130 AIP aren't immune to nukes.  Buy yourself more time!

[Lord Of Nothing]

First, a mention that this is most certainly not a complaint- I rarely use warheads, and I usually play single homeworld anyway because my computer isn't really up to any more once late game hits- this is me being curious.

Further, I agree it's not a problem for Nukes and EMP's (And tachyon), since the effect of those scale up with the number of ships present.
It's more lightning and armoured warheads I'm thinking of- their punch per escalation of AI threat decreases as the number of homeworlds increases. I suppose if they're your very last resort near the end of the game when that escalation isn't going to last long, It doesn't matter that you have to use proportionately more, and thus cause more escalation, to clear the same level of enemy forces-
But what about at other points in the game where you might need a big punch to help out with a one time event- like surviving spire city hub construction in a high difficulty game with four homeworlds, for example. In that case, for the same relative effect, you have to increase AIP by four times as much as you would with one homeworld. (Although counting AIP in fallen spire matters less, but you get my point)

[Cinth]

I haven't tried the Quadratic AI type yet, so no comment on it particularly.

"All minor factions set to 10/10"

All I can say is you asked for it.  You stacked the deck against you in a very nasty way there.  A very nasty way (off the top of my head are 4 Exos, auto AIP, cookie monster, DS, enclaves, and wardens).  1130 AIP is also going to hurt (a lot).  Ok, so yeah, warheads.

However I can still argue that AIP from warheads aren't the issue here, the lobby options are  .

Last thing, aren't non-planet killing warheads damage capped?  That stat is tied to cap scale (90% sure on that).

@LoN:  In multi HW games you also have larger caps of defensive assets. More turrets, forts, and shields.  If you know you need more presence to defend against heavy hits,  it is there to be used.  Also, if I'm not mistaken, AIP doesn't scale linearly with number of homeworlds.  In a 4 HW game, 1 AIP does not equal 4 AIP (vs a single HW game).  Pretty sure on that too, though Keith could probably clear that up quickly (you can also math it out from the logs if you enable them).

[Lord Of Nothing]

I haven't tried the Quadratic AI type yet, so no comment on it particularly.

"All minor factions set to 10/10"

All I can say is you asked for it.  You stacked the deck against you in a very nasty way there.  A very nasty way (off the top of my head are 4 Exos, auto AIP, cookie monster, DS, enclaves, and wardens).  1130 AIP is also going to hurt (a lot).  Ok, so yeah, warheads.

However I can still argue that AIP from warheads aren't the issue here, the lobby options are  .

Last thing, aren't non-planet killing warheads damage capped?  That stat is tied to cap scale (90% sure on that).

@LoN:  In multi HW games you also have larger caps of defensive assets. More turrets, forts, and shields.  If you know you need more presence to defend against heavy hits,  it is there to be used.  Also, if I'm not mistaken, AIP doesn't scale linearly with number of homeworlds.  In a 4 HW game, 1 AIP does not equal 4 AIP (vs a single HW game).  Pretty sure on that too, though Keith could probably clear that up quickly (you can also math it out from the logs if you enable them).

If the armoured/lightning damage cap is tied to homeworld numbers, it's not showing up in the user interface- for me anyway.
As for the AIP thing, I'm probably not being very clear. What I'm saying is that, in a 1HW game, if you have an overflow of, say, 10% more strength than your maxed, well set up defences can handle, that's probably within the capacity of one or two warheads to handle. On the other hand, in a four homeworld game, which would have to same overflow from the same causes due to scaling (I think), that's 4-8 warheads, and 4x as much AIP increase to deal with proportionally the same overflow. And since the AI nastiness increase per AIP is the same on all homeworld numbers, that's overall a bigger increase in AI nastiness being charged to deal with the 'same' situation uysing warheads.

[Cinth]

I was talking about damage being tied to ship cap scale, not HWs.

And I can't say that I have ever seen what you are talking about.  Between fleet, super weapons, and planetary defenses I've never met a threat I couldn't handle unless AIP was way to high for what I had out.  At those points I start to rally newly replaced ships to intercept.  If that fails then I reload an earlier save and see what went wrong.  I flat out refuse to use warheads in any capacity so I have to constantly evaluate what I'm doing to not allow the AI an advantage.

[Alex Heartnet]

I'll leave this here.







Yes, the game recommends a rather extreme setting for auto AIP.  So, about those lightning warheads...

[Cinth]

I leave auto AIP set to 0 since I always play FS and that always entails a higher AIP game.

Auto AIP forces the player to keep progressing through the game so that you kill the AI HWs before AIP gets out of hand.  One of the minor factions (civilian leaders) causes auto AIP every hour unless they are on a neutral or player controlled planet.


The most awesome aspect of this game is that you can tailor your experience to your level of play.  If you want more pain you can always make that happen.  And I will stand by what I have been saying in that you shouldn't have to use warheads unless you kindly mess up somewhere along the way.

[motai]

i will note that the tooltip you posted is very unclear and if i remember default settings taht is more like 5 per 30 minutes not 1 per 5 minutes though that is equivilant. the base settings i ahve seen default to 1 every 30. and i do usually turn it off since the changes that increase wave size based on game time limit the needs to actively push ai progress. i also will not if you are compaining about unreasonable progression that spire civillian leaders are 11 ai progress per hour which is almost as bad since to negate it you have to cause 80+ points of ai progress and who knows how many active ai system alerts to tone it down. but that is just reference to make sure your game doesnt drag to 20+ hour but some of us like to not be pressuered into ai progress corners.

all of that is aside from the thread original topic. yes ai response from warheads scales with homeworld size, but power of lightning and armored warheads does not. you can use more because of multiple homeworlds but this is compounding the problem of ai progress not making them a valid tactic. i do wonder how valid fractional ai progress is in the program and whether warheads could have their progress divided by number of homeworlds? this seems like a simpler solution than multiplying their power which is already enormous and balances the need to still build them from multiple sources on scale with homeworlds.

[Kahuna]

And I will stand by what I have been saying in that you shouldn't have to use warheads unless you kindly mess up somewhere along the way.

Not necessarily. Using Warheads is standard on 10/10 difficulty. On difficulties 9 and lower it does't matter if you use some Warheads because the difficulty level is so easy. If a Warhead or two saves you a lot of time and resources and you ca handle the AIP increase it's ok.

AI Homeworld assault is a perfect example.. it's so much easier to just pop the strategic reserve with a couple of Warheads.

If you need Warheads to save yourself from losing it means you will soon need Warheads again.. at that you will have to reload an earlier save, decrease AIP or get some major defensive tech unlocks. Using a Warhead or two to stop CPAs or Exos is ok. I always stop the first CPA with just fleet, turrets and mines.. but for the second CPA.. which is often ~8000 ships.. i often use a Warhead or two and I don't find that to be a problem.

[Cinth]

And I will stand by what I have been saying in that you shouldn't have to use warheads unless you kindly mess up somewhere along the way.

Not necessarily. Using Warheads is standard on 10/10 difficulty. On difficulties 9 and lower it does't matter if you use some Warheads because the difficulty level is so easy. If a Warhead or two saves you a lot of time and resources and you ca handle the AIP increase it's ok.

10/10 maybe, but again, that level of pain you asked for and receive accordingly.  It's a different animal and not something you are supposed to be able to beat.  So go ahead and throw everything you have at it.

AI Homeworld assault is a perfect example.. it's so much easier to just pop the strategic reserve with a couple of Warheads.

A HW assault should be at a point where you are ready to end the game and thus the extra AIP here shouldn't even be a concern (which is what I thought was the main idea in the thread). 
It's cheesy to throw warheads at the HW, but whatever floats your armada 

If you need Warheads to save yourself from losing it means you will soon need Warheads again.. at that you will have to reload an earlier save, decrease AIP or get some major defensive tech unlocks. Using a Warhead or two to stop CPAs or Exos is ok. I always stop the first CPA with just fleet, turrets and mines.. but for the second CPA.. which is often ~8000 ships.. i often use a Warhead or two and I don't find that to be a problem.

This sounds close to what I was saying.  The whole need to go look and see where you went wrong.  Warheads aren't going to save you from a downward spiral.