Upper Level Bombers a Requirement?

[CautiousChaos]

As a newbie, I'm learning the ropes of the game and have a pretty good handle on the mechanics and overall strategy.  Fun game.  Something that I am noticing is that the need for high level (mk2, 3) bombers is almost a necessity.  On any given map I run into the AI having one or more force field defended bases and the like.  They all start at mk2 it seems and my swarm of mk1 bombers and mk1 missiles take _foreever_ to wittle down the shielding.  In order to make any kindof headway I feel that I am absolutely required to put knowledge points into high level bombers. 

I've been playing at Medium level AI with a difficulty of 5 and the waves and enemy forces in general have been easy to suppress and defeat.  It's these darn forcefields that are taking foreever to get past.  I have such limited Knowledge Points that it seems like a shame that I have to always spend them in this fashion versus pursuing other tactics and technologies to get past shielding in a timely manner.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on this banter.  Perhaps I am missing something obvious or subtle in this assessment...
-cc

[darke]

Sounds about right. Bombers II is always the first combat ship upgrade I get, Bombers III is usually the first Tech III upgrade I get, and often I get it before I get Fighters/Cruisers II.

The game's changed recently to toss more Tech I force fields in early, there was a previous bug where this didn't happen, so actually taking forcefields down with Tech I guys isn't as much of a problem early on, but after the first couple of planets you'll need Bombers II to do much.

[CautiousChaos]

I guess part of my dissapointment is that this behavior screams a specific build order to attain victory.  Granted, once you can get past shields without a problem you could probably mix it up, but you'll always be blowing those important knowledge points on bombers early on in the game.  I think that certainly limits your approaches in the early game.  And also as a newbie I just haven't seen the need right now for any expanded technologies aside from the heavy bombers and maybe another offensive upgrade. 

A bit rambling, sorry for that.
-cc

[glyptar]

I hear you.

The forcefields have been my main gameplay concern really. I haven't been building bombers, instead I'm building massed intruders. Even the low end forcefields take way too long to take down without them.

I guess in multiplayer games you'll have more ships to throw at the fields, so they won't be such huge time sinks, but when you're by yourself you are pretty much forced to invest very heavily in anti-forcefield stuff or be prepared to watch your ships sit there pounding away for 15 minutes per field. It was even worse when there were still heavy forcefields in the systems next to you. I found the game unplayable without anything but intruders then, to be honest.

[x4000]

You know, this is an interesting discussion.  You are right, this is causing some degree of predictability in the early-game build order, which is most certainly not my intention.  I am going to experiment around with adding some new anti-forcefield missiles, which I think will be a big hit.  They won't require knowledge, so you can use those in place of bombers and get rid of the force fields that way.  They will probably come with a small AI progress increase on use, to deter players from just using them indiscriminately, since I want to make these cheap enough to use during the early game.

[Admiral]

You know, this is an interesting discussion.  You are right, this is causing some degree of predictability in the early-game build order, which is most certainly not my intention.  I am going to experiment around with adding some new anti-forcefield missiles, which I think will be a big hit.  They won't require knowledge, so you can use those in place of bombers and get rid of the force fields that way.  They will probably come with a small AI progress increase on use, to deter players from just using them indiscriminately, since I want to make these cheap enough to use during the early game.

Neat idea, thank you.

I know my early game is all centered around:

a) Attacking planets without force fields (which in all my games are still Mk III only)

b) Getting a full fleet of Bomber II ASAP

c) Getting Engineer II ASAP

I don't even bother building Engineer Mark I anymore after I have II.

ALSO: If you want to make the Mk II and III teleporting Engineers different - give the Mark II a teleporting range, where it can only go, say, 1/4th planet radius at a time AND/OR that it can't teleport for a second (or whatever) after a teleport, or something.

Cheers!

[x4000]

ALSO: If you want to make the Mk II and III teleporting Engineers different - give the Mark II a teleporting range, where it can only go, say, 1/4th planet radius at a time AND/OR that it can't teleport for a second (or whatever) after a teleport, or something.

For the Mark III engineers, the main additions they bring are:
1. Capacity (ability to have more engineers).
2. Cloaking
3. More health.

For me, I think that's enough difference for a line like that.  The main advantages are really just 1 and 3.

[CautiousChaos]

I haven't been here that long, but maybe it's enough to have the AI starting out with Mk1 shielding instead of Mk2/3.  It would give my non-bombers a fighting chance, though I suppose now that I am thinking this through it would still mean that at some point I would have to make the investment in Mk2,3 bombers once the AI increases their shielding accordingly. 

Would it be enough to give an increase in either a) bombers and/or b) non-bombers efficacy in taking down shields?  Without making any core game changes, that is.  Or maybe to nerf the shielding just a touch.  This might prevent having to introduce a new technology or other attribute. 

-cc

[CautiousChaos]

Another stray thought, but what if electric shuttles could be leveraged more against shielding?  Suppose they could act as disruptor either doing damage directly to the shield generator or by weakening the shield so that bombers were more effective?  I could see then a strategy where you might load up on electric shuttles (which are way cool) to be used as dampening fields against shielding. 

[x4000]

I haven't been here that long, but maybe it's enough to have the AI starting out with Mk1 shielding instead of Mk2/3.  It would give my non-bombers a fighting chance, though I suppose now that I am thinking this through it would still mean that at some point I would have to make the investment in Mk2,3 bombers once the AI increases their shielding accordingly. 

Would it be enough to give an increase in either a) bombers and/or b) non-bombers efficacy in taking down shields?  Without making any core game changes, that is.  Or maybe to nerf the shielding just a touch.  This might prevent having to introduce a new technology or other attribute. 

The main thing is that the AI does not build new force fields as the game goes on. It starts with what it has, and that's that -- the tech level of the force fields is determined by the tech level of the planet.  This helps to create a starting "scenario terrain" that players can choose how to navigate.

As far as increasing the bomber's attack bonus against force fields, I could do that but I worry about what that would do to game balance as a whole.  Same thing with nerfing force fields in general.  This is a tricky issue, because right now force fields are the biggest "hardened targets" around aside from something like SuperFortresses or the home planet command station, and I'm wary of weakening these too overmuch.  But at the same time, putting too huge an emphasis on bombers in the early game especially is not a good idea. :/

[x4000]

Another stray thought, but what if electric shuttles could be leveraged more against shielding?  Suppose they could act as disruptor either doing damage directly to the shield generator or by weakening the shield so that bombers were more effective?  I could see then a strategy where you might load up on electric shuttles (which are way cool) to be used as dampening fields against shielding. 

That could work, but electric shuttles are not in every game since they are a bonus ship type.  My original thought was to actually have electric shuttles just be able to hit ships under the force fields as if the force field was not there (kind of like infiltrators in that regard).  Lightning turrets and missiles could have the same ability, which I think would provide some extra utility for them.

It's a shame that more people don't use EMP missiles, which temporarily disable the force fields (thus allowing players to clear out the stuff underneath them).

Actually, I think it would be nice if Starships had a bonus against force fields.  I'm going to add that to my list, since that's going to encourage the use of more starships.

[Admiral]

It's a shame that more people don't use EMP missiles, which temporarily disable the force fields (thus allowing players to clear out the stuff underneath them).

I have never even SEEN an EMP missile.

In fact, I haven't seen the majority of things in the game, as I seem to get my small ships up to Mk III first and then research star ships, so I almost never need anything else before I win.

I like the Starship bonus idea. I usually try to build all five of them as soon as possible.

[Pandemic]

What ships do you need to build to get access to these EMP missiles?


-Pandemic

[CautiousChaos]

It's a shame that more people don't use EMP missiles, which temporarily disable the force fields (thus allowing players to clear out the stuff underneath them).

I have never even SEEN an EMP missile.

In fact, I haven't seen the majority of things in the game, as I seem to get my small ships up to Mk III first and then research star ships, so I almost never need anything else before I win.

I like the Starship bonus idea. I usually try to build all five of them as soon as possible.

This is what I am seeing, too.  You can get most everything done with a strong offensive military - which is a downside to a degree because some of the other technologies are kindof nifty.  Never seen one of the EMP Missiles.  If I had that might have solved my quandary. 

-cc

[CautiousChaos]

I haven't been here that long, but maybe it's enough to have the AI starting out with Mk1 shielding instead of Mk2/3.  It would give my non-bombers a fighting chance, though I suppose now that I am thinking this through it would still mean that at some point I would have to make the investment in Mk2,3 bombers once the AI increases their shielding accordingly. 

Would it be enough to give an increase in either a) bombers and/or b) non-bombers efficacy in taking down shields?  Without making any core game changes, that is.  Or maybe to nerf the shielding just a touch.  This might prevent having to introduce a new technology or other attribute. 

The main thing is that the AI does not build new force fields as the game goes on. It starts with what it has, and that's that -- the tech level of the force fields is determined by the tech level of the planet.  This helps to create a starting "scenario terrain" that players can choose how to navigate.

As far as increasing the bomber's attack bonus against force fields, I could do that but I worry about what that would do to game balance as a whole.  Same thing with nerfing force fields in general.  This is a tricky issue, because right now force fields are the biggest "hardened targets" around aside from something like SuperFortresses or the home planet command station, and I'm wary of weakening these too overmuch.  But at the same time, putting too huge an emphasis on bombers in the early game especially is not a good idea. :/

Yep, messing with bomber and shield capabilities would probably through the law of unintended consequences into full gear.  I completely agree...

-cc