Unit Abilities vs The Interface

[deMangler]

P.S. -- deMangler, sorry to see you go, but I'm glad that it sounds like things are going well for you in your life, and I wish you best of luck.  When you have more time again and are around here more, we'll be happy to see you, and we'll still be here. Thanks for all your contributions!

Projects come and go. It won't last - freelance programming used to be an easy way to make lots of money - not any more.
Anyway It just means I have less "dedicated" gaming time. Even if I only spend 30 mins a day on this forum from now on that is still plenty of time to join in /throw spanners in works / grenades in hen-houses / etc.
Thanks for the good wishes.
Yeah, that http://superuser.com/faq is a good one. I like the "disagreement heirarchy" one in my sig as well.
Actually some of the discussions of this forum have been more focused and directed than many meetings I have been in where people were getting paid huge amounts of money to be just that.
Hmmmm, well, people here very often don't have an ulterior motive, and there is nothing like huge amounts of money to screw with peoples focus and direction.... (warning to potentially very successful games devs... )
dM

[Kordy]

I was quite surprised to find that there is a historical precedent for this very debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnp3NCMrH1M

Anyone who understands German should watch with the sound muted.....

Anyone offended by satirical internet memes should not watch at all....

dM

That vid cracked me up more than it should, but then again that meme is just fun overall.

If a game element makes me right-click less and proves to be valuable for it's in-game and time costs, who cares if it's a right click menu or a thing you build? If it works (it does) and is somewhat balanced in the great schemes of things (ditto here), and if it's easily accessible (yup, it is), I really don't care what form it's in. Form and function should flow together, not clash. And in a 4x/RTS game, function is more important than form to me. But then again, I'm a mechanical engineer, not an interior designer, so my world view can be described as flawed. There are form and function constraints ever-present in almost everything, and in game as well - the slider for ship icon/model view is a good example.

So, comparing to other important things (let's say, munitions boosting ), I can easily understand if this debate was placed in the back burner for the time being, or even considered in the '...naah, not worth it' section. Though I must admit the first sight of the control nodes build menu isn't a pretty sight, but then again, I guess a 4x game has the right to have at least one scary menu

[vonduus]

lololololol - "The angst of an engineer with no control node" lololol.......

[deMangler]

I was quite surprised to find that there is a historical precedent for this very debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnp3NCMrH1M

Anyone who understands German should watch with the sound muted.....

Anyone offended by satirical internet memes should not watch at all....

dM

That vid cracked me up more than it should, but then again that meme is just fun overall.

If a game element makes me right-click less and proves to be valuable for it's in-game and time costs, who cares if it's a right click menu or a thing you build? If it works (it does) and is somewhat balanced in the great schemes of things (ditto here), and if it's easily accessible (yup, it is), I really don't care what form it's in. Form and function should flow together, not clash. And in a 4x/RTS game, function is more important than form to me. But then again, I'm a mechanical engineer, not an interior designer, so my world view can be described as flawed. There are form and function constraints ever-present in almost everything, and in game as well - the slider for ship icon/model view is a good example.

So, comparing to other important things (let's say, munitions boosting ), I can easily understand if this debate was placed in the back burner for the time being, or even considered in the '...naah, not worth it' section. Though I must admit the first sight of the control nodes build menu isn't a pretty sight, but then again, I guess a 4x game has the right to have at least one scary menu

I am very happy someone enjoyed it.
It was impossible to resist, that is such an excellent piece of ranting and uncomfortable shuffling. Possibly even random subtitles would be hilarious.
Seriously, I think it is great the amount of chewing over some ideas get on this forum. I can see AI War, and indeed Arcen Games going from strength to strength. Not only that, but the sheer decency (for want of a better word) of the methodology is refreshing.
dM

[x4000]

I was quite surprised to find that there is a historical precedent for this very debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnp3NCMrH1M

Anyone who understands German should watch with the sound muted.....

Anyone offended by satirical internet memes should not watch at all....

dM

That vid cracked me up more than it should, but then again that meme is just fun overall.

I am very happy someone enjoyed it.
It was impossible to resist, that is such an excellent piece of ranting and uncomfortable shuffling. Possibly even random subtitles would be hilarious.

Oh. My. God.  Finally watched that video, I should have before.  That is absolutely fricking hilarious, and possibly the world's most obscure inside joke.  But I love it.

Seriously, I think it is great the amount of chewing over some ideas get on this forum. I can see AI War, and indeed Arcen Games going from strength to strength. Not only that, but the sheer decency (for want of a better word) of the methodology is refreshing.

I think that a lot of good stuff results from this attention to detail on the forums, also.  Sometimes it spirals in a direction where it will have to go forth without my involvement due to the time that a sideways discussion can take, but overall it's this very precision and (no offense intended, I'm referring to myself as much as anyone) OCD/anal-retentiveness about the game that leads to a superior product.  If we were all just like "meh, balance is good enough," or similar, then a great many important-but-niche-and-convoluted things would get missed, and the game would be the poorer for it.  Sometimes that force can work in a negative fashion, but overall it is overwhelmingly a positive thing.

[vonduus]

Back to topic and a perhaps more serious note:

@ Revenantus and x4k and everybody else who is interested: I found this article on my harddisk, it pretty much explains my views on consistency and interface. I don't remember where I got it from, it is from 1989, but you can probably verify it by googling the author. Probably you already know it.

Attached: 'The case against user interface consistency', by Jonathan Grudin

edit: The article is still available on the internet:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/groups/coet/Grudin/papers/CACM1989.pdf

[x4000]

Very cool article link, vonduus. I had not read that before, but I think I have read some things that probably cited that as a source.  Very nicely sums up my view on that sort of thing, too.  Thanks for the link!

[WinterBorn]

I was quite surprised to find that there is a historical precedent for this very debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnp3NCMrH1M

Anyone who understands German should watch with the sound muted.....

Anyone offended by satirical internet memes should not watch at all....

dM

Sorry to see this vid is now blocked for copyright

[x4000]

Oh, man, that stinks. It was really a favorite of mine... 

[deMangler]

Oh, man, that stinks. It was really a favorite of mine... 

A bit surprised that Constantin Film blocked it on copyright grounds. Satire was fair use I thought. 
Anyway.....
The vid can be watched or downloaded for posterity here.
dM   

[Buttons840]

I'll take this opportune moment to request that the alt-X context menu be used to replace control nodes.  There are already tree structured menus and toggle-able selections, so why not?   

(Thus began another chapter in the control-node saga.)

[x4000]

Oh, man, that stinks. It was really a favorite of mine... 

A bit surprised that Constantin Film blocked it on copyright grounds. Satire was fair use I thought. 
Anyway.....
The vid can be watched or downloaded for posterity here.
dM   

Yeah, and if anything it's free publicity for them, too, but whatever.  I thought the same of satire, but it's possible that since folks were satirizing something else via their video, it didn't count.  Bleh, whatever, if I was them I still wouldn't have pursued it.

Anyway, thanks so much for the video download link, I had been sad I'd never be seeing it again, so I'm happy to have that all safely downloaded.

[x4000]

I'll take this opportune moment to request that the alt-X context menu be used to replace control nodes.  There are already tree structured menus and toggle-able selections, so why not?   

(Thus began another chapter in the control-node saga.)

Well, for some/all of the global ones, we probably will do something along these lines.  But, probably not for months, as there's simply no time at the moment.  For the single-planet control nodes, those will probably always be control nodes for obvious reasons.

[keith.lamothe]

I would probably just have the context menu option queue up the corresponding control node next to your home command station

[keith.lamothe]

Oh, and thanks very much for securing another download location for that, I've now squirreled away a copy so I won't suffer the angst of not having the angst-of-an-engineer-without-a-control-node video

I have an agrarian friend and coworker (I work two jobs) who has a degree in religion and a degree in computer science, and when I told him about AI War he was basically of the opinion (in a non-in-your-face way) that games are mostly a waste of time and not intellectually stimulating, etc... some weeks later I mentioned this video in passing and he said "you mean one of your customers did that?"