Author Topic: Unit Abilities vs The Interface  (Read 20856 times)

Offline akronia

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2010, 01:32:27 pm »
I really like the idea of control nodes, I think of them as software updates to my planetary control grid.

But I'm not sure about the placement - what if those wouldn't be in the normal build-menu but instead would appear if one clicks on the home command station, opening the "grid software update" menu where I could select my control nodes? These update would then be instantly affecting my grid, without placing them at all.

Meaning the menu there acts as a click-to-have-update and would show by coloration which ones I updated so far.

Edit: hmm that sounded a bit stupid, I guess I had forgotten that the command station actually builds stuff and not my B-key  ;D

I guess it would make sense to just have those click-to-have-updates right in the build-menu, then - to build those updates for the planetary grid.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 01:44:40 pm by akronia »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2010, 02:04:33 pm »
Right, but that's not his point.
You're right, I got kinda wrapped up in discussing the term "macro" management.

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His point is that if he can achieve something by pausing, micro'ing, and wasting time doing mundane chores, he shouldn't have to pay knowledge costs for it.
I've thought a similar thing when adding new nodes and wondering "why am I paying for a node to auto-frd these things?"  Ultimately that's up to Chris, and I think he has ideas for nodes where the benefits would make sense to have a cost.  But I'm somewhat confused: when I play I only see two nodes that need knowledge to unlock (auto-frd-engineers and auto-frd-mobile-military).  The rest are all free.  And even the non-free ones are only 250 knowledge each.  Is that really *that* big of a deal?  I certainly see why a diff 10 player would need every drop, but 1/20th your starting knowledge for nodes you may not even want to use... I guess I may be operating from a different perspective, or maybe my game data is somehow very different from yours (which really shouldn't be the case as I'm frequently modifying it for balance changes and uploading it for inclusion in the prereleases, etc).

Anyway, I'd rather just take the 250 costs off those two nodes and call it done.  But there may be nodes in the future that provide a bonus to the extent that a cost makes sense.  That would fall outside the facilitated-micro area as I agree that you should not have to pay in-game currency solely to save yourself some real-life time/clicks.

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Edit: I should just say that I think control nodes in general are a bad idea.  It a bad solution to a UI problem.
I don't think it is an optimal way to do UI, nor do I think it is an optimal solution to the problems that prompted Chris to introduce the concept (those problems are wider scope than just UI).  But I wouldn't call it a bad solution.  It actually works very, very well for a lot of the recent features we've added, and actually make a lot of sense in some of them (like the new one for 3.027 that tells all ships "ok, if you've been repaired by an MRS, stay at the MRS rather than charging back to where you were").  Also, they're much easier from a development time perspective because they're part of the simulation and are thus automatically "sync'd" across all players rather than an interface option stored in the GameSettings object that would have to be passed with every relevant GameCommand message to the host.  I recently added two control nodes, and also added one new combo-box to the interface menu; the combo-box itself took like 2.5x times as long as the full implementation of both control nodes.  Granted, part of that is my being new to the code (but not new to GDI+ interfaces like that particular form is), but it's still a big difference.

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Again though, the important part is that they shouldn't cost knowledge.
I agree for any node that's just saving you time/clicks, which is all there is for the time being.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 02:31:31 pm »
Keith, I'm fine with taking the knowledge costs off these ones.
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2010, 03:12:55 pm »
IMO all control nodes should be free, unless that control nodes does something more than control.

A player can have absolute control with thousands of click, the pause button, and many yawns; and personally I will always opt for this option rather than pay game resources for something that's a mere convenience.

Now if there was a control node which increased repair rate of engineers on the planet that would be a different story.  The lore might be something like "new technology allows for better coordination between repairing engineers."  This is a stats change, not just an assist with the controls.

I just can't imagine a lore for a control assist.  "After much cost and research, we're now able to do the exact same things we could do before."


Control nodes seem a hackish way of implementing the interface, but Chris in one post expressed he implemented it this way for simplicity and accessibility (and perhaps to facilitate future plans which we don't know about).  I respect this line of thought.  It's nice not having another menu to navigate.

This probably warrants another tread, but I'd like to see control nodes affect only the planet they're on.  I like having extra engineer on my forward planets (the "front line"), and I don't like having to click click click to rebuild them.  Allowing planet specific control nodes would be an easy solution; also control nodes are very well suited for such application, more-so than a menu would be.  You would have to build control nodes at each planet, but considering that only a couple planets are obtained per hour this isn't a big problem IMO.


PS - The game is great as is, lets not forget it.  I recognise there are many improvement waiting, and that some of those take higher precedence.  But when the opportunity comes, please remember these suggestions about the control nodes.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 03:30:28 pm by Buttons840 »

Offline deMangler

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2010, 03:42:51 pm »
I have read about this in a few posts here and there, this seems to be the best place to put my view on things, just my view, FWIW.

IMO all control nodes should be free, unless that control nodes does something more than control.
Why 'should' it be free? Control is not an easy thing to establish in a galaxy where just about all the bandwidth is controlled and monitored by a very hostile AI.

A player can have absolute control with thousands of click, the pause button, and many yawns; and personally I will always opt for this option rather than pay game resources for something that's a mere convenience.
OK, thinking as a player, out of the game, there are lots of other ways things could be, I don't really know where to start.

Now if there was a control node which increased repair rate of engineers on the planet that would be a different story.  The lore might be something like "new technology allows for better coordination between repairing engineers."  This is truly a new ability and should rightfully be paid for.

I just can't imagine a lore for the current control nodes costing money.  "After much cost and research, we're now able to do the exact same things we could do before."
'Rightfully'? This is war! It's not fair. In my game it makes perfect sense that control nodes work the way they do, it help the immersion. However, that is just my game and I am not criticising anyone else way of relating to the game, I am just surprised that this way of looking at things, which makes very little sense to me, is being portrayed as if it is 'obviously right and correct for everyone'. I can't think of a control node that is 'doing the same things as before', it is very different. It can make quite a big difference in the overhead of a very resource restricted (including logistics and control ability) humanity against a practically limitless in resources AI.

Control seem a hackish way of implementing the interface, but Chris in one post expressed he implemented it this way for simplicity and accessibility.  I respect this line of thought.  It's nice not having another menu to navigate.
Seems to fit just right to me, maybe it could have been explicitly fitted into the game 'lore' better.

This probably warrants another tread, but I'd like to see control nodes affect only the planet they're on.  I like having lots of engineers at my home which is where most of my ships are produced and the engies help with the production.  On protected planets, perhaps in a corner, they may never need an engineer.  Making the control nodes planet specific would facilitate this.  The only problem would be building multiple control nodes at every planet, but considering that a planet happens only a couple times per hour this is a small problem.
Control nodes per planet? Not as a replacement for global control nodes. Maybe software upgrades to Orbital Control Centres for system specific behaviour defaults..... Please understand this is just my view, and I don't mean to set it up as a confrontational response to this post in particular, it is just that this post contained the points of disagreement nicely laid out to respond to, here is my solution, if one is needed.

Have an AI progress cost to control nodes. Personally I think that the knowledge cost is a way of saying "we have overcome the ability of the AI to be further alerted to our efforts by this control node", so if we haven't overcome this ability, then we need an AI cost, although, personally I am happy with the knowledge cost...
dM
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 03:48:35 pm by deMangler »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 03:54:57 pm »
Thanks Chris.  For 3.027:
-Auto-FRD-Engineers and Auto-FRD-Mobile-Military control node knowledge costs removed (were 250 each).

IMO all control nodes should be free, unless that control nodes does something more than control.
Why 'should' it be free? Control is not an easy thing to establish in a galaxy where just about all the bandwidth is controlled and monitored by a very hostile AI.
From a customer service standpoint I would rather give the player the best tools to save time (that don't take away any of the actual challenge or interesting decision making) without them feeling like it's an in-game tradeoff.  If it actually gives some kind of in-game benefit that's a different story, but that's not the case right now.

Now if there was a control node which increased repair rate of engineers on the planet that would be a different story.  The lore might be something like "new technology allows for better coordination between repairing engineers."  This is truly a new ability and should rightfully be paid for.

I just can't imagine a lore for the current control nodes costing money.  "After much cost and research, we're now able to do the exact same things we could do before."
Have you ever compared, for instance, manually keeping track of your bank account through a paper checkbook with, say, Quicken?  Or just an online banking site that records any of your checks that was deposited or charges on your credit/debit card?  It's not really doing anything you couldn't do before.  But do you find it useful?  Or more fundamentally, what's the point of a program like Excel?  Or computers at all?  Most of the time these are just tools to do exactly what we used to do, but more efficiently.  It's all about shortening the "implementation" phase that comes after the "decision making" phase.  And these tools have costs, oftentimes really high costs.  But that doesn't mean the game has to take that approach with control nodes.

This probably warrants another tread, but I'd like to see control nodes affect only the planet they're on.  I like having lots of engineers at my home which is where most of my ships are produced and the engies help with the production.  On protected planets, perhaps in a corner, they may never need an engineer.  Making the control nodes planet specific would facilitate this.  The only problem would be building multiple control nodes at every planet, but considering that a planet happens only a couple times per hour this is a small problem.
We can make planet-specific control nodes, that's not a problem, but often you'll want a global impact without having to build nodes all over the place.

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Have an AI progress cost to control nodes.
NO!!! ... sorry, initial reaction over.  Still, no ;)  We do actually *want* players to use these :)
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 04:49:14 pm »
Thank you for liberating the control nodes, I am very happy with this decision.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2010, 05:58:31 pm »
I can think of a perfect node that would cost knowledge, and thus a justification to have nodes as they are: Auto-management of power generation. Currently, the whole reason of having power generators and such is to make more of a soft cap on whatever units you build. With an auto-energy management you could build as many reactors you like without worrying about the drains or the energy cap anymore, because your handy dandy control node will just turn off all the low-efficiency ones for you unless you need them.
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Offline HellishFiend

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2010, 09:15:28 pm »
I can think of a perfect node that would cost knowledge, and thus a justification to have nodes as they are: Auto-management of power generation. Currently, the whole reason of having power generators and such is to make more of a soft cap on whatever units you build. With an auto-energy management you could build as many reactors you like without worrying about the drains or the energy cap anymore, because your handy dandy control node will just turn off all the low-efficiency ones for you unless you need them.

Agreed. If ever there is to be a control node that costs knowledge, this one should be it!  (though I wouldn't complain if it were free, either  :))
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Offline deMangler

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2010, 09:21:34 pm »
I can think of a perfect node that would cost knowledge, and thus a justification to have nodes as they are: Auto-management of power generation. Currently, the whole reason of having power generators and such is to make more of a soft cap on whatever units you build. With an auto-energy management you could build as many reactors you like without worrying about the drains or the energy cap anymore, because your handy dandy control node will just turn off all the low-efficiency ones for you unless you need them.

Agreed. If ever there is to be a control node that costs knowledge, this one should be it!  (though I wouldn't complain if it were free, either  :))
I do find micromanaging reactors one of the least fun bits of the game, still a bit fun though... But it would be nice to have the option to spend a little knowledge to be released from doing it.
....

Offline vonduus

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 02:50:46 am »
I can think of a perfect node that would cost knowledge, and thus a justification to have nodes as they are: Auto-management of power generation. Currently, the whole reason of having power generators and such is to make more of a soft cap on whatever units you build. With an auto-energy management you could build as many reactors you like without worrying about the drains or the energy cap anymore, because your handy dandy control node will just turn off all the low-efficiency ones for you unless you need them.

Agreed. If ever there is to be a control node that costs knowledge, this one should be it!  (though I wouldn't complain if it were free, either  :))
I do find micromanaging reactors one of the least fun bits of the game, still a bit fun though... But it would be nice to have the option to spend a little knowledge to be released from doing it.
....

There is a balance here: It was fun to figure out how to save some resources, now it is a bit tedious to do it. Some sort of automation would be nice, but if I on day one had seen a control node named 'optimize power plants' I would probably have turned it on and forgotten all about it - meaning that I missed all the fun of figuring the whole thing out ion the first place. So this control node should definitely come at a cost.

Perhaps a high resource cost? Does it have to be knowledge all the time?
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2010, 05:36:34 am »
I do find micromanaging reactors one of the least fun bits of the game, still a bit fun though... But it would be nice to have the option to spend a little knowledge to be released from doing it.

So if one removes the "least fun" parts of the game they should be punished?


Lets take a step back, and bring this debate back to it's roots of abilities vs interface.  We need to take a more methodical approach.

Consider the plant known as "Squash" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squash_%28plant%29) which contrary to what I would have initially thought is a fruit.  Why is it a fruit?  Is it because of a lengthy debate over what squash itself should be classified?  No.  It's because a fruit is defined as "the part of the plant which contains seeds is the fruit."  There is no debate after a standard is defined.  "A squash is a part which contains seeds, it is a fruit."  End of discussion, no room for debate.

So define your standard.  Once defined there will be no more debate over specific issue such as control nodes.

I'll repeat my standard which I have based all my opinions on, and take us back onto the broader subject of abilities vs interface.

If a specific ability allows you to accomplish an action, and that same action can be performed without possessing that specific ability, then that specific ability should be free.  If a specific ability allows you to accomplish something which cannot be achieved without possessing that ability, then it may have a cost associated with it.  A basic set of abilities should always be available free of cost to establish the game and facilitate fun gameplay.

I classify abilities which allow you to achieve that which can otherwise be achieved as "interface elements."
I classify abilities which allow you to achieve that which cannot otherwise be achieved as "game elements."

This my standard, and now I will apply my standard to various components in the game:

  • Fighters, Bombers, Frigates - These are game elements.  They are free as part of a basic set of abilities which establish the game.
  • The pause feature - An interface element.  Frantic clicking or the use of macros can achieve the same which can more easily be achieved by using the pause.
  • FRD mode for units - An interface element.  Pausing frequently and issuing orders to each individual unit can achieve the same thing, without using FRD mode.
  • Group selection - An interface element.  You could otherwise issue specific orders to each individual unit, with lots of pausing no doubt.
  • Control nodes - An interface element.  Any ability offered by control nodes (at least, the current set) can be achieved without using control nodes and instead frequently using pause and lots of "checking up" on your units.
  • A power management control node - The same effect can be achieved without the control node by frequent use of pause and lots of "checking up" on things.
  • The ability to build Fortresses - A game element.  You cannot build a fortress with the pause and lots of clicking no matter how hard you try, unless you have researched it first.
  • Other unlockable ships - A game element.  You cannot build them at your regular construction bays without researching them.  No amount of pausing and clicking, or "checking up on things" will allow you to do this without researching them.
  • The default behavior of scouts which causes them to move to the edge of the planet/sector - An interface element.  The same can be achieved by issuing specific orders and lost of "checking up" on your units.

So that is my dividing line, it's consistent and it makes sense.

I can respect any standard, so long as it is consistently applied.  The closest thing I've seen to a standard defined by anyone else is along the lines of "if it might have a large effect on the outcome of the game, it should have some cost associated with it."  If this is applied consistently then pause will have a control nodes would have a cost, and so would pause and FRD mode in general, as well as group selection.  I can respect the idea "control nodes should have a cost, and so should pausing" far more than I can respect "control nodes should have a cost, but pause should be free," because it's consistent.

So for those who's opinion differs from my own, I challenge you to define your standard, and then apply it to the list I have here.  This way we aren't only talking about control nodes but establishing a way by which all new feature may be measured.

Offline Cydonia

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2010, 06:49:49 am »
So define your standard.
[...]
...because it's consistent.

This totally makes sense to me, I like this way of thinking in general^^. But you might have a problem if there are multiple definitions which all are neither wrong nor the only possible solution. The definitions might all be logically correct and might all make sense, finally each player might have his own preferences thus not accepting the other systems.


This reminds me of scientific models :D: I remember that for example there is no only model to describe the atom in science. It always depends on what you want to refer to.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2010, 07:14:33 am »
The problem with a standard definition in this case is it interferes with a pesky little thing called a game mechanic. A standard implies homogeneity, which is not necessarily a good thing for a game. In this case, it's one of those things where it does enough damage to a mechanic (in this case, the energy economy) that it shouldn't come for free because no one in their right mind would play without it, yet it has the potential to make the game significantly easier. How you ask? you can just build a couple of reactors of each mark level at each world you own and since the node takes care of turning off the unused/low efficiency ones you'll be set for the rest of the game. Granted, that's something you could have done without the node, but because of the amount of microing it takes you wouldn't do it.

Put another way: would you allow an interface option that tripled energy reactor output at no additional resource cost? You might, but i seriously doubt you would play with it (because it's in there for free and basically removes energy as a consideration from the game), and i also bet you would insist on a hefty dent in whoever used it's score too. That is essentially what you want, if you think about it enough.

Or, to apply your reasoning:
An interface element is one provided to make it easier to issue orders in some fashion, or performs a small amount of work for the user which would be tedious to carry out otherwise.
A game element is any item that directly interacts with other units, structures, or mechanics in the game to alter the flow of gameplay or offload a relatively large amount of work from the user.

By that statement:
 * Units are a gameplay element. They interact with other elements to alter game flow.
 * The pause feature: an interface element. It makes it easier to issue orders.
 * FRD Mode: an interface element. It makes it easier to issue orders.
 * Group Selection: It makes it easier to issue orders.
 * Control nodes: (at least should be) a gameplay element. They (at least should) interact with other units and structures and offload work from the user, in a fashion that alters game flow.
 * A power management control node: A gameplay element. It offloads a relatively large amount of work from the user, and alters the game flow by minimizing energy concerns and resource consumption.
 * The ability to unlock techs, (and those techs themselves): A gameplay element.
 * Scout behavior: an interface element (sort of). It performs a small amount of work for the user which would be tedious to carry out otherwise.

It feels like we're dangerously close to arguing semantics here though...

[the bold text is a callout to chris: this may be the definition and role for control nodes you've been searching for]
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2010, 08:16:14 am »
This may just be my own opinion, but an auto-energy-management node that only did what you could do just faster and with less effort on your part would be a free node.  If we're going to provide that interface option it shouldn't be a gameplay tradeoff.

Now would we provide that option?  Dunno.  I talked to Chris about it a little while ago and it sounds interesting but it's basically removing part of the "game".  Do that in enough places and there's not much game left ;)  But perhaps managing which reactors are on and off is part of the game that can just go away for those people who don't need more fine-tune control.

Anyway, a node that tripled energy output would be distinctly a gameplay thing rather than an interface thing, because you as a player can't just triple energy cost without spending resources (or cheating).  In this respect whether something is an UI element (like the handicap percent thing at the start of the game) or a control node is really not important.  Basically the question is:

Could I do this for free without the control node?
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