Author Topic: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types  (Read 9767 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« on: November 09, 2011, 01:17:07 pm »
Well, while the devs are hard at work at AVWW, maybe we can start a discussion about fleet ship types that seem to be underwhelming currently. This way, we can get get one part of a "high priority" list of balance concerns for when AI War development starts up again.
Notice, this is only about fleet ships. Starship types, spirecraft, golems, and the like are for another discussion.

When making a post, please not only say the ship type name that seems underwhelming to you, but a explanation about why you are underwhelmed by them. Ideas for fixing them are optional.
Keep in mind, there is more than one way for a ship to be underwhelming. The top two ways are being underpowered, and being not worth the cost.


Here is my list.

Spire Teleporting Parasite:
This is a not worth the cost ship. They can do their job OK. Their HP is a bit on the low side for their ship cap, but not terrible. Their weapon is weak, but that is to be expected for a reclaiming ship type. Thanks to the fancy reclaiming damage logic, they can reclaim stuff decently.
The problem is that a below average HP (for their ship cap) combined with teleportation and a weak weapon means they don't have very good survivability. That would be fine, if their cost wasn't so dang high. I tried using them once for defense, but they died so much that I had to rebuild almost all of them after every wave. This really killed my crystal supplies so much I just stopped using them. I would recommend reducing their cost by a decent amount.

Zenith Autocannon Minipod:
These things are nice and cheap, but have a weak DPS even considering their ship cap. This is counteracted somewhat by their armor rotting properties. This would be nice, but there are two problems. One, armor is not a big factor. Average armor ratings on ships are a good 1 to 1.5 a magnitude LOWER than average weapon power. Even among (non giant) ship types specializing in armor, their armor value is a good half a magnitude lower than average weapon power. This means that armor rotting is not a valuable property, which makes the job of minipods, weakening ship durability, not do very much. Most ships won't take that much more damage at 0 armor than they do at full armor in the current balance of the game. The armor issue will not be easy to fix, as it will basically require a balance sweep.
Second, their targeting logic seems off. They seem to try to maximize DPS. That is fine. The problem is that due to their weak weapon, armor does matter to them. So to maximize DPS, they tend to seek out targets with the lowest armor. Well that's good for their DPS, but poor for their gimmick. One of their big jobs is to wear down the armor of the few things that have enough armor to make a difference in battle, which their current targeting logic causes them to avoid. Maybe adjusting their targetting logic (and the targeting logic of armor rotters in general) is to seek out maximal DPS assuming armor is 0, whether it currently is or not, because it soon will be.

Spire Armor Rotters:
Same issue with their gimmick as the minipod. But at least they have decent damage to make up for it. Similar targeting issues, but not as big of a deal because their attack is high enough to not automatically exclude armor when seeking out how to maximize DPS.

Armored Ships:
On the fence about this one, but it seems like their durability is not quite high enough to live up to their name.

Space Tanks:
Same thing with the armored ships.

Vampire Blades:
Their damage doesn't seem high enough to make their vampirism make much of a difference. At their current average health gain from vampirism, its almost as if they didn't have it at all.
EDIT: An increase to the percentage life regained with damage inflicted seems less likely to overpower them than a simple increase in damage.

Any thoughts or additions?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:29:31 am by techsy730 »

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2011, 04:29:26 pm »
I agree:

Nenzul tigers

They are supposed to be like the tanks of the younglings yet their armor is not enough for their hyper active decay combined with high cost. There are not even the most durable units: Weasels usually are more durable.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 04:38:27 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 05:44:35 pm »
Space tanks are just slow bombers.  I expected them to be tough and they really aren't.  Given their speed I think they need quite a bit more health or armor even if it is at the expense of damage.

Offline Commiesalami

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 08:23:27 pm »
Autocannon Mini-pods (The cloaked ones to be sure we are talking about the same thing) are actually a great ship in my opinion.  It says right in the description that they are weak agianst enemy fleet ships but excel at sniping out structures and tachyon guardians.  I remember a game awhile back where I sniped out most of the Tachyon guardians in the galaxy and I was able to build up a cap of the auto cannons and then have them strike the home world of a level 9 AI with an AI eye.  While the rest of my fleet was able to stay on the defense for the incomming counter attacks.  I took out 2 or 3 guard posts per attack until the eye was down and I could bring in the cavalry.  You could do the same thing with Raid Starships, but the rebuild time and the resource cost are a lot higher

Offline Nice Save

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 08:16:20 am »
I agree with Commiesalami about the minipods, their stealth and armour damage make them really useful for hitting hard targets behind enemy lines, especially if you use a distraction to draw off the fleet ships.

I don't use Armour Rotters very often, but in the hands of the AI they are a very effective counter to Raid Starships, which leads me to believe that with the right strategy, we too could use them well.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 09:32:17 am »
I had forgotten about how minipods make great bomber supplements. I still think that targeting logic adjustment I suggested is worth a look over though.

Also, Raid Starships are one of the few ship types where their armor is actually noticeable. So yea, armor rotters would counter them decently.

Anyways, one more type to add to the list,

Neinzul Youngling Commando:
Their weapon is weak even by Neinzul standards, and worse, they have some of the worst average damage bonuses among the neinzul ships, with only the vulture having less overall. This would be OK, if they were durable, but they aren't. They have only average survivability. The only damage bonus that they have that is always useful is the ultra-heavy bonus. All the others are situational. They do gather scout intel though, which is convenient.

Offline Burnstreet

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 08:56:42 pm »
Today, before capturing an ARS, we were joking about what basically useless type it would be - etherjet, teleport raider, etc.

We got the worst one - the eyebot.
The only use for it I can think of is keeping tabs on a System - thanks, I already got 60 other scouts for that.
Combat performance is abysimal and it is slow, so it doesn't help with scouting deeper.

Offline Orelius

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 09:25:45 pm »
Teleport raiders aren't half bad, though.  If you stack several caps of those little things, they can be used to harass and destroy guard posts without much opposition, as long as the AI doesn't have snipers or similar ships.  They are rather lackluster in normal combat, but hey, they're cheaper than fighters.

I agree that eyebots are horrendous.  Anything it can do almost any other ship can do better, its scouting info is not unique and it is rather weak compared to other ships with scouting abilities, too.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 09:49:01 pm »
How to improve the eyebot: leave behind a parasite on the enemy ship that spies for increasing amounts of hours per mark of ship
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Offline doctorfrog

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 12:13:18 am »
Sometimes I play IL-2, a World War II combat flight simulator. Not a whole lot, mind you, and I don't know that much about planes. What I generally do is either pick a plane at random or start a career campaign as the pilot of one kind of plane or another.

What I've generally seen is that you're only very rarely flying one of the famous super-performing planes in the game if you do it this way. Each of these planes has its own quirks, some were horribly outclassed by what the enemy historically had, and sometimes you're sent mission profiles that put you at a disadvantage.

Sometimes, not all the times. Lots of times, the situation isn't that bad, but when I'm at a disadvantage, I can choose to play around it, or I can do my best and see if my (extremely poor) skill can take me through it.

Even though I could easily only fly the very finest and best aircraft in the game, the fact is that in war, you only have what you have, and maybe it's great, maybe it isn't. Not all your pilots are going to be aces, not all your planes are going to be killer. You go to war anyway. So I usually just tough it up and play until it's not fun anymore (a threshold that obviously varies from person to person).

It's almost certain that AI War is in need of more balancing, tweaking, and lots of new ships. No doubt there're plenty of all these on the horizon. But in the meantime, having ships that aren't superstars, or even kind of lame fits in with the overall scenario of the game lore itself: this is it, this is what you've got, make the most of it. Good luck, don't die.

tl;dr: maybe it's not a bug, but a feature

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 09:26:00 am »
I agree that eyebots are horrendous.  Anything it can do almost any other ship can do better
Out of curiosity: firing through forcefields, after sneaking up while cloaked?  Last I heard about eyebots was how terrifying they were when the AI got them.  Granted, the human player relies more on ffs than the AI does, but there's a whole genre of gameplay complaints that start with the phrase "Under an AI MkIII FF I found...".   So there's Raid Starships, and maybe that's what people use there, but it seems like the Eyebots would help too.  General sneaking around and hitting things through protection.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2012, 09:32:08 am »
I agree that eyebots are horrendous.  Anything it can do almost any other ship can do better
Out of curiosity: firing through forcefields, after sneaking up while cloaked?  Last I heard about eyebots was how terrifying they were when the AI got them.  Granted, the human player relies more on ffs than the AI does, but there's a whole genre of gameplay complaints that start with the phrase "Under an AI MkIII FF I found...".   So there's Raid Starships, and maybe that's what people use there, but it seems like the Eyebots would help too.  General sneaking around and hitting things through protection.

Exactly. Eye bots fall under the "raiding style" of ships. Not built for big armada "blob" combat, but rather for guerrila type tactics and getting past defending locations for a specific target.

True, these types of ships are a bit less useful to the human than the AI, due to the fact that AI planets tend to have less "well planned" defenses around important stuff than human planets, but they are still great things to have, especially in those obnoxious cases where something you want dead is under a force field.

Offline superking

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 10:19:31 am »
it makes me sad to see so many of the most terrifying 3.0 ships are now considered bad.. eyebots used to be literally THE most terrifying AI unlock (except maybe zenith polarisers..). I loved their 'uncloak and maul all your turrets' style  8)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 11:10:50 am »
it makes me sad to see so many of the most terrifying 3.0 ships are now considered bad.. eyebots used to be literally THE most terrifying AI unlock (except maybe zenith polarisers..). I loved their 'uncloak and maul all your turrets' style  8)

They still are scary in AI hands. I have lost quite a few good things by their hands when the AI got their hands on them in my recent game. (Though, they got a new hard counter, missile counter turrets, but those are expensive to unlock and you don't get too terribly many of them)
It's just that unless a player is good with micro managed guerrilla style tactics, they aren't all that useful in human hands.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Underwhelming Fleet Ship Types
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2012, 12:46:36 pm »
In the first game I won, I used Eyebot's missile immunity several times to save myself from Missile Frigate waves.  I don't think that is enough to make them great though.  They have sniper immunity and general insta-kill immunity, which is nice.  But...

My biggest problem with them as stealth raiders, which they seem to be designed as, is they cannot go in unsupported at all.  And if I bring in enough support for them I probably don't really need them.  The only time I really wanted to ignore force fields was against a Fortress under a Core FF and well, Eyebots cannot stand up to a Fortress.  If I'm to use them as raiders, they really need a way to get in and get back out again with acceptable losses.  Better Speed, like a Raid Starship would work, but their immunity to Speed Boosts suggests that isn't likely.  If they could get back into stealth faster it could help.  That, or a bigger alpha strike from stealth.  Maybe let them store up 3 shots when not firing, so their opening volley would be three times as strong.  Of course, as a player, if the AI unlocked Eyebots, I might have to cry at a x3 force-field ignoring volley in wave 1 from ships immune to a third of my triangle ships.  Maybe make it volley equal to Mark.  So not until Mark III would they get a x3 opening volley.