Um.. Exo? What?

[NickAragua]

Can we uh, not buff the AI homeworlds. I appreciate the skill that it takes for some of you guys play and beat this game regularly on 10/10, but the rest of us peons really don't need the added challenge.

[Kahuna]

Done. Ridiculously easy.

What settings/map/strategy were you using?

I chose very simple settings since it has been quite a while since I've really played the last time. I wanted to take it easy.

Ancient Shadows is disabled because I hate some of it's bonus ships. Tackle Drone Launchers and Spire Railclusters being the main reasons.. although I had Fast Drones disabled anyway.. derp. I kind of feel bad for having it disabled. Ancient Shadows' Core Guard Posts would have made the AI Homeworld assaults more interesting. It would have been a bit harder and I'd have had to use more Armored Warheads. Aka it would have just taken a bit longer. Aka I would have had to deal with the 14 hour 30 minute 46000 ship CPA.. but I was prepared for that too. I was going to nuke it.

AI 2 Homeworld took only one attack.. yes I destroyed it in one go. That was funny. AI 1 Homeworld took 2 attacks. During the first attack I managed to destroy everything else but the AI Home Command Station. So the second attack was just 2 Assault Transports full of Bombers which destroyed the Command Station.

-I always play with "Simple" map type.
-Zenith Traders' toys are borderline OP. The toys are very powerful but on the other hand they're very expensive so they take a long time to build. I built a SuperFortress, Zenith Power Generator and a Mark II Radar Jammer. I would have won without the Trader stuff too but they did make it easier. I would have had a Missile Silo and at least 1 Mark I Lightning Warhead on each whipping boy. Will disable Traders for my next game.
-Nowadays Zenith Dyson Sphere does absolutely nothing. The Dyson Gatlings are obliterated by Needler and Laser Guard Posts so it had no effect on the gameplay.
-Cookie Monster didn't really seem to effect the gameplay. It does like to eat some AI ships but nothing major. But it does help the player a little bit. It's just fun having the Cookie Monster roaming around the galaxy.
-Exodian Blade.. oh I forgot I had this enabled. Forgot to take a look at the "Exile" display mode on the Galaxy Map. Oh well I'll try it at some point.
-4/4 Hybrid Hives don't do anything. ~90 Hybrids attacked one of my whipping boy during a big wave/reprisal/whatever and all of them were obliterated in a matter of seconds. The Hybrids just sat next to my whipping boys until a CPA arrived.. then they started the "operation meat shield". Should have turned it to at least 8/8.
-4/4 Hunter doesn't do much. First of all there were only a few dozen Missile Guardians.. and late game they were countered by Counter Missile Turrets so they just worked as cannon fodder for the AI and Metal income for me. Secondly.. the Hunter/Killers.. the whole Special Forces fleet has ONLY 1 HUNTER/KILLER.. which I literally 1 shot with Bombers so it never got to do anything. I mean it's a Hunter/Killer.. it's supposed to be scary (no?). Should have turned it to at least 8/8.
-4/4 Preemption. I didn't notice this at all. I tried 10/10 at some point and it killed me early game so I though I should take it easy and turn it to 4/4. Now it didn't do anything. Should have tried 8/8.
-Recently I've not been a big fan of CSGs. I will enable them for the next game though.
-I hate Swallowers
-I despise Fast Drones
-Hmm why did I disable Dire Guardians? Will make sure to have it enabled the next time.

Also as you can see from the unused Hacking Points.. I got lazy because it was way too easy and just wanted to finish the game.





About strategy



I used my usual strategy which goes roughly something like this:
Setup the whipping boys and the core of the empire. Then scout and destroy some AIP reducers. Make Tachyon Sentinel free highways and setup beachhead planets. Go for the important objects like Advanced Factory and Super Terminal and setup more beachhead planets (temporary/disposal planets I don't care if I lose and only use for organizing attacks/hacks/whatever). Destroy more AIP reducres. Clear the way to AI Homeworlds. Kill the AIs.

During the whole game I gathered 79000 Knowledge of which 45750 (~58%) was used for defenses.
Turrets: 26750
Fortresses: 7000
Force Fields: 9000
Minefields: 3000

I had Mark IV Bombers and Mark IV Munitions Boosters.
All Mark II Munitions Boosters were used to boost turrets on planets that were under attack. I had a Space Dock on all planets that had hostile Wormholes ready to build Mark II Munitions Boosters. A cap of Mark II Munitions Boosters was enough to provide all the Turrets on that planet with double damage (Turrets have an attack boost limit of +100%). Thanks to Mark III Gravitational Turrets and Mark II Munitions Boosters even Mark I Hunter/Killers melted even before they got in range to shoot at anything.

My typical AI Homeworld assault fleet:



Mark IV Munitions Boosters give 2,70 attack damage multiplier so you can imagine how fast those AI Mark V Force Field Generators melted when I attacked with almost ~400 Bombers.

Warheads were used to destroy the Strategic Reserve and the Core Guard Posts. Especially Armored Warheads are very good at destroying Core Guard Posts.. actually they're good at destroying anything. Mark I-III Cloaker Starships are there to keep the Warheads alive as long as possible. I though I'd try to use Scout Starships to boost the Cloaker Starships so they would stay alive longer but it didn't really seem to work.

The difficulty needs a hefty buff.

I think it's more that some human units need a nerf.

I kind of wouldn't like to say this but..
..Assault Transports might be overpowered. Also Economical Command Stations might be. I had a Zenith Power Generator but I think I would have been fine without it too. I had a SuperFortress which costs 300000 Energy and Mark I and II Fortresses. I also had a lot of Turrets.. although I didn't have any permanent beachheads and I had only 7 permanent planets.. 3 of which had Turrets. Sooo I'm not really sure if Economical Command Stations need a nerf. The map layout did make chokepointing easy.

If you're playing on a map that doesn't favor chokepointing and you want/need strong defenses Economical Command Stations are the only option because defenses use so much Energy. Military Command Stations are for big fleets.. not turret balls.

Trader toys are probably overpowered. I'm not sure that's a reason to nerf them though. Traders can always be disabled.

EDIT: I looked at "kills made by" stats at STATS-->Ships By Player/Types By Player and..
..holy shit Area Minefields have 74304 kills. Increase Area Minefields' Knowledge cost to 3000? 4000?


Other stuff:




I only had Mark I Sniper Turrets and they still have 28620 kills. It seems like they are really overpowered.

[Hearteater]

Nicely done.

A note on the Trader, the AI gets to buy from it too. So you see more things like Black Hole Generators and Ion Cannons. I can't recall if the list (which is separate from what we can buy) includes Super Forts or not. Schizophrenic also generally makes things easier, so if you want harder, turn that off. You get slightly tougher average waves, but much rarer really hard wave spikes. Of course it does depend a bit on the ships the AI gets. If they get Munitions Boosters, Schizo is harder.

[Draco18s]

Nicely done.

A note on the Trader, the AI gets to buy from it too.

That's why I leave it turned off these days.  My playstyle is such that the AI gets more benefit than I do and I can't compensate.

[Kahuna]

The difficulty needs a hefty buff.

I think it's more that some human units need a nerf.

I kind of wouldn't like to say this but..
..Assault Transports might be overpowered. Also Economical Command Stations might be. I had a Zenith Power Generator but I think I would have been fine without it too. I had a SuperFortress which costs 300000 Energy and Mark I and II Fortresses. I also had a lot of Turrets.. although I didn't have any permanent beachheads and I had only 7 permanent planets.. 3 of which had Turrets. Sooo I'm not really sure if Economical Command Stations need a nerf. The map layout did make chokepointing easy.

If you're playing on a map that doesn't favor chokepointing and you want/need strong defenses Economical Command Stations are the only option because defenses use so much Energy. Military Command Stations are for big fleets.. not turret balls.

Trader toys are probably overpowered. I'm not sure that's a reason to nerf them though. Traders can always be disabled.

EDIT: I looked at "kills made by" stats at STATS-->Ships By Player/Types By Player and..
..holy shit Area Minefields have 74304 kills. Increase Area Minefields' Knowledge cost to 3000? 4000?
*snip*

^^other than that I don't think the player needs any nerfs.

Can we uh, not buff the AI homeworlds. I appreciate the skill that it takes for some of you guys play and beat this game regularly on 10/10, but the rest of us peons really don't need the added challenge.

AI Homeworlds don't necessarily need to be buffed.. they need to be balanced.
The old Core Guard Posts are way too weak compared to the new ones. Hunter/Killer Factory is an exception. Hunter/Killer Factory basically means that AI Homeworld has 1 less Guard Post. I mean a Mark I Hunter/Killer every 30 minutes. First of all the Mark level of the Hunter/Killer should be equal to Tech Level and it should spawn at least every 15 minutes. 5 or 10 minutes might be good. I mean it's a Core Guard Post and a Hunter/Killer.. aka it's going to hunt you.. it's going to find you.. and it's going to kill you.. but it's not since it's too easy!! No but seriously.. a Mark I Hunter/Killer every 30 minutes doesn't do much. Anyone can easily counter it with Bombers and Flagships for attack damage boost.

Anyway lets compare an old Core Guard Post vs a new one:
Core Zenith Fortress Guard Post
Health: 100*100/3=180000
DPS: 3333
Range: 8000

vs Core Teuthida Guard Post
Health: 600000
DPS: 7000*20=35000
Range: 999999000 (aka infinite)
"--this post continuously generates nanoswarm-like drones. Instead of doing reclamation damage, however, the organisms released by these drones instantly transform the target into "zombie" vessel."

Do I need to say more?

I'd say buff the old Core Guard Posts and nerf the new ones.


About CPAs and waves..
..It seems like the late game CPAs aren't even nearly as scary as the early/mid game ones. During the game player's strength grows faster than the strength of the CPAs.. and waves to some extent. The 12 hour CPA had about ~43000 ships and the 14 hour CPA had "only" ~47000 ships even though the AIP had increased by ~100 after the 12 hour CPA.

Waves could be buffed a little bit too. At 200-300 AIP a normal wave had about 3000-4000 ships. 600-900 if the wave had Spire Tractor Platforms.

[TechSY730]

Sniper (and spider) turrets have already been identified as out as OP in another thread.

Yea, the core guard posts definately need to be looked at right now; too much variance between them.

I wouldn't mind waves being buffed some. But what do others think about which difficulties need it? All of them, 8 and up, 9 and up, 10 only?
Did you have any exo sources (aside from HW core guard post ones) enabled? Would you and others mind having exos nerfed but waves buffed?

As for CPAs, I'm not really sure what their growth logic is. Was the AI able to "fulfill" the number "advertised" in the CPA announcement each time? If not, the strategic reserve and/or defensive "budget" of the AI may need a buff.

[Hearteater]

Why are you comparing Brutal Guard Posts to regular Core Guard Posts? Brutal are supposed to be much more dangerous, to the point that they affect how you have to solve the homeworld.

[Kahuna]

I wouldn't mind waves being buffed some. But what do others think about which difficulties need it? All of them, 8 and up, 9 and up, 10 only?

Players who play on those difficulty levels should answer this question.

Did you have any exo sources (aside from HW core guard post ones) enabled? Would you and others mind having exos nerfed but waves buffed?

Nope. No exo sources enabled. This was a "no superweapons" game.
From what I've understood and remember from the last time I played with exo sources.. they were kind of OP. Saying Exos are an "I win button" for the AI might be too much but they were really strong. So I agree it would be a good idea to shift some of the strength from Exos to normal waves.

As for CPAs, I'm not really sure what their growth logic is. Was the AI able to "fulfill" the number "advertised" in the CPA announcement each time? If not, the strategic reserve and/or defensive "budget" of the AI may need a buff.

Good point. I think it was at the 12 hour CPA when I noticed the AI was not able to fulfill the advertised number. The actual number was a few thousand less than the advertised one.. but I'm not sure if it was compensated with fewer higher Mark Level ships.

Actually.. the reserve might explain why the 14 hour CPA had "only" 47000 ships.. I had just destroyed AI 2 so there was no AI 2 reserve where to pull ships from. However that doesn't explain the 12 hours CPA which was lacking.

[Kahuna]

Why are you comparing Brutal Guard Posts to regular Core Guard Posts? Brutal are supposed to be much more dangerous, to the point that they affect how you have to solve the homeworld.

Because I forgot they are Brutal Core Guard Posts. Still.. they're really easy (I meant normal core guard posts are easy).

EDIT: Actually normal Mark IV Guard Posts are more dangerous than the normal Core Guard Posts. Except Raid and CPA Guard Posts.

[Hearteater]

Just to clarify: You find Core Guard Posts easier than Mark IV Guard Posts. You also find Brutal Guard Posts too easy. Is that correct? Is their a particular regular Mark IV Guard Post you find notable more difficult than others?

[Kahuna]

Just to clarify: You find Core Guard Posts easier than Mark IV Guard Posts. You also find Brutal Guard Posts too easy. Is that correct? Is their a particular regular Mark IV Guard Post you find notable more difficult than others?

-Yes I find Core Guard Posts easier than Mark IV Guard Posts. Mark IV Guard Posts do much more damage and have at least as much health or more.

-No I find Brutal Guard Posts balanced. Some of the might be a little bit overpowered.

-Imo all normal Guard Posts are equal and balanced. Though Missile Guard Post is probably the strongest because of it's long range and Polycrystal attack damage multiplier.
Of all Guard Posts (including the sub commander ones) Sniper, Spider, and Widow Guard Posts really stand out. They're really strong. I don't know if they are too strong.. but strong. But the other ones are clearly balanced imo.

[TechSY730]

Yea, for a long time, I have been thinking it might be a good idea to nerf exos some and buff waves some in return. The discrepancy is a bit...much right now.

[Faulty Logic]

Yea, for a long time, I have been thinking it might be a good idea to nerf exos some and buff waves some in return. The discrepancy is a bit...much right now.

I have the opposite experience. Non-FS exos are a joke (at 4/10, the "balanced" setting) compared to waves.

..Assault Transports might be overpowered. Also Economical Command Stations might be.

I think they're fine. I almost never unlock econ stations, but do sometimes for big empire games.

Assault transports should decloak if a non-cloaked unit enters them, and that would prevent most of the cheese, while leaving a useful unit.

During the whole game I gathered 79000 Knowledge of which 45750 (~58%) was used for defenses.

*boggles* We play so differently. I usually spend 12000 k on defenses, for MilIIIs, HFFIs and FFIIs.

Waves could be buffed a little bit too. At 200-300 AIP a normal wave had about 3000-4000 ships. 600-900 if the wave had Spire Tractor Platforms.

I had waves of about that size at that AIP... on ultra-low caps, so there could be a scale factor missing. I agree that 13.3xAIP normal-cap ships is too low at diff 10, though.

[Kahuna]

Yea, for a long time, I have been thinking it might be a good idea to nerf exos some and buff waves some in return. The discrepancy is a bit...much right now.

I have the opposite experience. Non-FS exos are a joke (at 4/10, the "balanced" setting) compared to waves.

That's entirely possible. They have been nerfed since the last time I played with Exo sources.

..Assault Transports might be overpowered.

Assault transports should decloak if a non-cloaked unit enters them, and that would prevent most of the cheese, while leaving a useful unit.

I think that would be too big of a nerf. The cloaking combined with the fast movement speed is extremely useful for getting past AI defenses. Which is exactly what Assault Transport is supposed to do. I think the problem is that it's too tanky and does too much damage. It could also be made to decloak whenver it loads or unloads ships. In addition to that it's health and attack damage could be reduced. Or it's Knowledge cost could be increased to 4000.

During the whole game I gathered 79000 Knowledge of which 45750 (~58%) was used for defenses.

*boggles* We play so differently. I usually spend 12000 k on defenses, for MilIIIs, HFFIs and FFIIs.

Yeah I knew we play very differently. Which is good. It's good to have multiple perspectives on the game. It also proves that there are many ways to play AI War even on 10/10 difficulty level.

So you prefer ships over turrets. What kind of tactics do you use to stop waves/CPAs/Exos etc. Do you transport your fleet past AI planets with Assault Transports or do you just crush everything in your way with brute force?

I prefer surgical strikes and strong defenses.

[Kahuna]

Yea, for a long time, I have been thinking it might be a good idea to nerf exos some and buff waves some in return. The discrepancy is a bit...much right now.

I have the opposite experience. Non-FS exos are a joke (at 4/10, the "balanced" setting) compared to waves.

..Assault Transports might be overpowered. Also Economical Command Stations might be.

I think they're fine. I almost never unlock econ stations, but do sometimes for big empire games.

Assault transports should decloak if a non-cloaked unit enters them, and that would prevent most of the cheese, while leaving a useful unit.

During the whole game I gathered 79000 Knowledge of which 45750 (~58%) was used for defenses.

*boggles* We play so differently. I usually spend 12000 k on defenses, for MilIIIs, HFFIs and FFIIs.

Waves could be buffed a little bit too. At 200-300 AIP a normal wave had about 3000-4000 ships. 600-900 if the wave had Spire Tractor Platforms.

I had waves of about that size at that AIP... on ultra-low caps, so there could be a scale factor missing. I agree that 13.3xAIP normal-cap ships is too low at diff 10, though.

Waves could be buffed a little bit too. At 200-300 AIP a normal wave had about 3000-4000 ships. 600-900 if the wave had Spire Tractor Platforms.

I had waves of about that size at that AIP... on ultra-low caps, so there could be a scale factor missing.

Um what the hell