Author Topic: UI woes  (Read 3626 times)

Offline ZarahNeander

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UI woes
« on: July 10, 2009, 02:05:33 pm »
Meanwhile I'm tempted to rename my AI:Wars link on the desktop to UI:Wars cause I feel I'm more fighting the UI then the AI  ;D

1) I'm constantly zooming in and out. And out and in. The point of the 'Q' key escapes me. With 'W' I can halfways reliably select units, but I have no clue *where* I've selected those units cause the white rectangle on the mini map is usually hidden by an unit blob. 'E' solves this problem but now I can't select units. And so on. I.e finding the right engineer when I have 4 on the planet is an excercise in patience.

2) What drives me insane is the habit to always jump to the orbital command station when i switch between planets. And not remembering the zoom on a per planet basis. I.e I try to select said engineer. Now something demands my attention on another planet. The view jumps to the command station, I have to zoom and pan, then I switch back to my orginal planet, view jumps to command station  && have to do it all over again. Not fun.

3) When I right-click an icon on the right panel the view is selected on that unit. Great. This also works if there's more than one unit *and* all those units fit on the screen. If this isn't the case the view is simply centered in nowhere land. Granted I can hit i.e '.' {Space} various times but it feels somewhat clumpy.

4) Good luck pulling of the 1.009 A+Z key combo on a non-US keyboard. And where might be the '/' key located on a german keyboard? To be honest, it isn't a big deal for me thanks to a G15 keyboard && autohotkey. Development time is a finite resource and certainly better spend on other things than configurable key bindings, but still.

My wishlist:

1) Draw the white rectangle on the minimap on top of unit blobs

2) Store unit selection, zoom amount and zoom position on a per planet basis. If someone wants the current behaviour bind the home key to 'jump to command centre'

3) Make right-clicking the game panel cycle through the units as one would expect.

Kind regards...Pia Kraft







Offline x4000

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2009, 02:22:12 pm »
Hey there, sorry to hear of your frustrations, but looks like you have some good suggestions there.

Meanwhile I'm tempted to rename my AI:Wars link on the desktop to UI:Wars cause I feel I'm more fighting the UI then the AI  ;D

I'm surprised to hear that, given that the UI is one of the favorite things most players and reviewers have commented on as being exceptional.

1) I'm constantly zooming in and out. And out and in. The point of the 'Q' key escapes me. With 'W' I can halfways reliably select units, but I have no clue *where* I've selected those units cause the white rectangle on the mini map is usually hidden by an unit blob. 'E' solves this problem but now I can't select units. And so on. I.e finding the right engineer when I have 4 on the planet is an excercise in patience.

Yes, there is a lot of zooming in and out with this game, but no more so than other very large-scale games such as Supreme Commander.  It's simply part of the nature of having such a vast scale.

3) When I right-click an icon on the right panel the view is selected on that unit. Great. This also works if there's more than one unit *and* all those units fit on the screen. If this isn't the case the view is simply centered in nowhere land. Granted I can hit i.e '.' {Space} various times but it feels somewhat clumpy.

The view is always centered on the very center of all of those units.  If you are wanting to just select them but not move the screen, such as if you are going to give them a movement order, then just left-clicking will suffice.

4) Good luck pulling of the 1.009 A+Z key combo on a non-US keyboard. And where might be the '/' key located on a german keyboard? To be honest, it isn't a big deal for me thanks to a G15 keyboard && autohotkey. Development time is a finite resource and certainly better spend on other things than configurable key bindings, but still.

I am not familiar with many other kinds of keyboards (it's been 13 years now since I was last in Germany), so I'm not too sure about a lot of that.  Normally I include configurable key bindings with my games, but with an RTS game all of the keys are used, and even have multiple functions, which can be quite problematic for that sort of purpose.  I'm not aware of many (I can't think of any, personally) RTS games that have configurable keybindings, just because of this reason.

1) Draw the white rectangle on the minimap on top of unit blobs

I've added this to my list as an option to add in the settings.  As a default, I think it is more useful for most people to show this behind the unit dots, simply because otherwise you can't see the unit dots at certain zoom levels.  But when you are very much zoomed in, you still won't be able to see the zoom window very well simply because it is a speck given the scale of the map versus the minimap.  Anyway, I'll add this as an option, though.

2) Store unit selection, zoom amount and zoom position on a per planet basis. If someone wants the current behaviour bind the home key to 'jump to command centre'

Actually, the H key already will center on the command station, so that's good to know.  It's funny, I think that this particular thing has actually been a minor annoyance for me, too, but it never really reached the level of conscious thought for me.  Thanks for bringing it up -- this has been added to my list.

3) Make right-clicking the game panel cycle through the units as one would expect.

This one is more challenging, simply because these are really meant to be group-selection boxes.  However, I think a good compromise would be to make the Ctrl+left/right click work as the current left/right click does, and then make left/right click cycle through these.  I agree that this would be really handy for engineers in particular.  So I think we can basically get the best of both worlds, this way.  I think that will be a really solid improvement, actually.  Added to my list!

Thanks for the suggestions!
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Offline Admiral

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2009, 02:34:25 pm »
not remembering the zoom on a per planet basis

That would be a neat enhancement. Glad it made the list.

Offline darke

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2009, 03:08:13 pm »
4) Good luck pulling of the 1.009 A+Z key combo on a non-US keyboard. And where might be the '/' key located on a german keyboard? To be honest, it isn't a big deal for me thanks to a G15 keyboard && autohotkey. Development time is a finite resource and certainly better spend on other things than configurable key bindings, but still.

I am not familiar with many other kinds of keyboards (it's been 13 years now since I was last in Germany), so I'm not too sure about a lot of that.  Normally I include configurable key bindings with my games, but with an RTS game all of the keys are used, and even have multiple functions, which can be quite problematic for that sort of purpose.  I'm not aware of many (I can't think of any, personally) RTS games that have configurable keybindings, just because of this reason.

Given the mass of ctrl-alt-shift stuff I'm not sure it's even possible.

Take for example the AZERTY (French) keyboard layout, all the numbers are shifted; so to type "0" you need to press shift-0. So for instance the ctrl+shift+[0-9] command can't actually be used to add a unit into an existing group. I wouldn't be surprised if there are others like this.

Then there's the various symbol keys, of which most have either disappeared or been rearranged on various keyboard layouts. Thankfully the Japanese keyboard I use isn't too odd. But it does show up quirks in the documentation, like for example ~ isn't on the same key as ` (back tick), so pressing the ~ key actually won't do what it says in the docco. :)

Offline x4000

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 03:11:54 pm »
Your thoughts mirror my own, there, darke.  That's why I didn't make keybindings here, whereas Alden Ridge (which is still in alpha) does have them.
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Offline x4000

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 03:16:40 pm »
Okay, here's a new prerelease that has all of these things in there:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,202.msg1628.html#msg1628

I wasn't planning to do a prerelease before tomorrow or Sunday, but some of these points were so good (and quick to code, too) that I couldn't resist going ahead and doing them ahead of schedule.
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Offline ZarahNeander

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009, 03:51:06 pm »
Okay, here's a new prerelease that has all of these things in there:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,202.msg1628.html#msg1628

I wasn't planning to do a prerelease before tomorrow or Sunday, but some of these points were so good (and quick to code, too) that I couldn't resist going ahead and doing them ahead of schedule.
Wow, x4000, now that was fast. I'm deeply impressed.

The UI is quite good. Otherwise the game would be pretty much unplayable. I admit that I'm overcritical when it comes to UI design, I can't play SE for its modal madness alone and Galciv makes me angry cause I can't clear an input box with ctrl-del or such. Stuff like that.

Sid Meier once said: 'a game is a series of interesting decisions' and in that regard, ai:wars is excellent. As addictive as MOO I && thats about the biggest compliment you can get from a seasoned gamer.


Offline Admiral

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009, 05:15:34 pm »
As addictive as MOO I && thats about the biggest compliment you can get from a seasoned gamer.

Ha! You mean "Really well seasoned and aged!"

Just one MOO player to another.

(I still think Wizardry I was the best game of all time. And, like AI Wars, that was compiled to an intermediate language too - UCSD P-code.)

Cheers!

Offline x4000

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 05:44:22 pm »
Wow, x4000, now that was fast. I'm deeply impressed.

The UI is quite good. Otherwise the game would be pretty much unplayable. I admit that I'm overcritical when it comes to UI design, I can't play SE for its modal madness alone and Galciv makes me angry cause I can't clear an input box with ctrl-del or such. Stuff like that.

Sid Meier once said: 'a game is a series of interesting decisions' and in that regard, ai:wars is excellent. As addictive as MOO I && thats about the biggest compliment you can get from a seasoned gamer.

Thanks!  I'm not always that fast, but you caught me at the right time and those were great suggestions.  I'm pretty into good UI design as well, and grumble about a number of other games with limited UI options, but not anywhere to the degree that it seems to bother you.  But, that's one of the great things about having feedback from players, is that it can refine the whole experience for everyone.  I don't know that I would have ever thought of those specific things myself, and no one else had brought them up yet.

I'm quite familiar with that Sid Meier quote, actually -- one of my guiding philosophies of game design is to only add features that increase the number of interesting decisions, rather than those which restrict them.  I feel like a lot of RTS games are becoming too simplistic in the very early game (in a 1 hour game, that would be the first 10-15 minutes), and that is making it so that, for me, the interesting decisions don't start coming until 15 or 20 minutes into the game, which is boring.  Of course that's only once a player reaches an expert or semi-expert level of play, but still; a good game doesn't get boring for its expert players, it gets more interesting.  Hopefully I have accomplished something like that with AI War, but it will take time as the early adopters get more and more seasoned with it.

Thanks for the compliments, and I'm very glad that you're enjoying the game.  If you have any more UI gripes (or other suggestions), by all means let me know, and I'll see what I can do!
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Offline x4000

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2009, 10:43:28 am »
So, there was some discussion about this feature here:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,202.0.html

Which led to some changes in the latest prerelease 1.010B:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,206.new.html#new

Let me know what you think, but I think that these are sensible changes.  Basically, now it only restores the old zoom/screen-position when you are clicking the planet from the galaxy map.  When Ctrl-clicking wormholes or using hotkeys, etc, it continues to use the older logic.  I can put in a settings option if you'd prefer to have this restore the zoom/screen-position in all cases, but I don't know that that is needed (if you want it, I'll add it, but I wonder if you'll like the way that it currently is).  Just let me know!
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Offline ZarahNeander

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2009, 04:08:18 pm »
1.010A greatly improved the game flow for me. Now I can do simultaneously things on different planets without perma-zooming, way cool.

1.010B: I'm glad that the auto-center of 's','b' etc. is gone. I found it inconvenient. Other than that I have mixed feelings, I can live with it && I can comfortably live with it, but let me try to explain why I would benefit from an option for 1.010A behaviour.

No worries with the 'keep the zoom when ctrl-clicking a wormhole'. I find it sensible. But say, group 1 is assaulting a fortress && still some way to go: mid-zoom. Group 2 is doing a gate raid && engaged with defenders: close zoom. group 5, scouts, are sniffing around near core territory && try to dodge tachyon emitters: zoomed out all the way. In such a situation I'm switching groups every 10 sec. or so && I don't want to care about the right zoom level.

See my point? Ofcourse I can tab to the galaxy map, select the planet (and get the zoom restored), select the group, which gives me the 1.0110A behaviour. But in that regard 1.010A is more slick for me.

Meanwhile I have two games under the hood (and wow, was that an epic trip), so take my observations with a grain of salt. I also don't know if it changes on higher diff. levels,  but does the AI ever use group move?. So far I find it easy to pick of hostile forces piecemeal, esp. structure defenders. My SOP is: fly a lone fast unit into 'trigger' range, fly back to my SoD, if they retreat: lather, rinse, repeat => defeat in detail. Quite some micro but minimal casualties.

Kind regards...Pia Kraft

Offline x4000

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Re: UI woes
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2009, 04:35:00 pm »
1.010A greatly improved the game flow for me. Now I can do simultaneously things on different planets without perma-zooming, way cool.

Wonderful! :)

1.010B: I'm glad that the auto-center of 's','b' etc. is gone. I found it inconvenient. Other than that I have mixed feelings, I can live with it && I can comfortably live with it, but let me try to explain why I would benefit from an option for 1.010A behaviour.

No worries with the 'keep the zoom when ctrl-clicking a wormhole'. I find it sensible. But say, group 1 is assaulting a fortress && still some way to go: mid-zoom. Group 2 is doing a gate raid && engaged with defenders: close zoom. group 5, scouts, are sniffing around near core territory && try to dodge tachyon emitters: zoomed out all the way. In such a situation I'm switching groups every 10 sec. or so && I don't want to care about the right zoom level.

See my point? Ofcourse I can tab to the galaxy map, select the planet (and get the zoom restored), select the group, which gives me the 1.0110A behaviour. But in that regard 1.010A is more slick for me.

I see, that makes great sense.  Often when I don't have a "use case" for how a player might use a feature, it's not clear until they tell me.  But this makes perfect sense, I've now added it to my list for 1.010C to have a settings option that will basically make it restore the old zoom level when activating control groups.  I think that will handle all the cases you mention above, but let me know if not.  1.010C should be out either later tonight or tomorrow, I'll post a link here when it is.

Meanwhile I have two games under the hood (and wow, was that an epic trip), so take my observations with a grain of salt. I also don't know if it changes on higher diff. levels,  but does the AI ever use group move?. So far I find it easy to pick of hostile forces piecemeal, esp. structure defenders. My SOP is: fly a lone fast unit into 'trigger' range, fly back to my SoD, if they retreat: lather, rinse, repeat => defeat in detail. Quite some micro but minimal casualties.

The AI doesn't use group move, but on the higher difficulties it's behaviors are better in many ways.  Still, I think that your SOP for the guards is generally going to be an effective one at present.  The idea of turning group move on for the guards is quite interesting, I've added it to my list to do something along those lines.  Great idea!
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