Author Topic: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps  (Read 28873 times)

Offline Nalgas

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2011, 01:41:58 pm »
That's great that you handicap your team out of a sense of spirit or fairplay or something. Self-handicapping doesn't sound that appealing to me, though. Goes back to the question, if you don't like automation, don't turn it on but support folks who do want to play that way.

Do you handicap your team by not setting yourself to +300% and the AI to -300% and difficulty 1 in the lobby?  That's the optimal way to win the game, you know...[/snarky]

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2011, 03:05:19 pm »
FYI, Chris and I spent some time talking about this overall issue and it turns out he's already gone through (mostly in early stages of the game's development) basically all of the alternative structures I've considered here and they all have either the same or worse problems in the end.  It's really one of those places where the least of the available evils has been reached and aside from periodic thinking-about-it there's no more to be done that will actually generate a net improvement in everyone's enjoyment.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2011, 03:28:13 pm »
FYI, Chris and I spent some time talking about this overall issue and it turns out he's already gone through (mostly in early stages of the game's development) basically all of the alternative structures I've considered here and they all have either the same or worse problems in the end.  It's really one of those places where the least of the available evils has been reached and aside from periodic thinking-about-it there's no more to be done that will actually generate a net improvement in everyone's enjoyment.

Why doesn't an optional control result in everyone's enjoyment again? I'm wondering who this harms. So we all go back to our respective corners, where some of us just leave everything on, and some of us pause the game because we are broke all the time because we are actually playing the game aggressively.

Do you handicap your team by not setting yourself to +300% and the AI to -300% and difficulty 1 in the lobby?  That's the optimal way to win the game, you know...[/snarky]

No, but I don't come up with random thought experiment handicaps to make the game harder because of a broken mechanic, and then suggest that as a possible gaming solution.  ::)

Please revisit this eight months from now when you are back on the product.
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2011, 03:48:48 pm »
Why doesn't an optional control result in everyone's enjoyment again?

Well, there's not much point in making it optional, because there's no reason to ever not have it enabled.  It removes any reason for having energy management in the first place.  No one would play with it disabled unless they were too ignorant of the game mechanics to know it existed in the first place or were so masochistic that they felt like being mean to themselves.  If it were added and made optional, it might as well be added and made mandatory, and the effect of that has already been discussed repeatedly ad nauseam (and so have all the other problems with the existing imperfect energy system).

Do you handicap your team by not setting yourself to +300% and the AI to -300% and difficulty 1 in the lobby?  That's the optimal way to win the game, you know...[/snarky]

No, but I don't come up with random thought experiment handicaps to make the game harder because of a broken mechanic, and then suggest that as a possible gaming solution.  ::)

I was kind of being a brat about it, but my point was that your decision of where to stop optimizing your gameplay is as arbitrary as anyone else's.  You could pause and unpause every tick of the game's internal clock and reposition your starships and armor/munitions boosters for best placement and turn on and off the right number of energy reactors as each ship of yours is built/destroyed, to the nearest millisecond, and kite all your units around at the precise edge of their range, and so on, but I'm going to guess you don't go nearly that far, because you have some arbitrary cutoff point for where it becomes too ridiculous for the rapidly diminishing returns even for you.

I really have no problem with you playing the way you do.  I do the same thing (or worse) in some other games and understand the appeal, and just happen not to so much in this particular game for whatever reason.  It's just getting a little frustrating to have you pounce on people for even mentioning that they play differently from you without criticizing how you choose to play.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2011, 04:01:52 pm »

I really have no problem with you playing the way you do.  I do the same thing (or worse) in some other games and understand the appeal, and just happen not to so much in this particular game for whatever reason.  It's just getting a little frustrating to have you pounce on people for even mentioning that they play differently from you without criticizing how you choose to play.


If there's no point in not having it enabled, because there is no game there, I don't see why I am forced to play your way. If everyone agrees there's no game here, there's no point. Any amount of "pouncing" is really just incredulity that I would be expected to just forget the fact there's even a problem and play like everyone else, which is impossible because there are no resources- I am broke. All the time. That's what happens when you play aggressively. If I sat here and watched a movie, maybe I might have some resources.

We are talking about a severe difference between resources. If this was something minor, maybe you could suggest that. But really, I am being forced to pause the game because playing every other way is impossible for a player that actually spending the money. In effect, I'm being forced into the lowest common denominator economic playstyle. That can't be right. I received my fair share of criticism for my play style in this thread-which is fine, no doubt I did the same-so I don't have a problem with that. What I mind the most is someone like the original poster who is asking for a freebie economic easy button, but when I want an economic easy button, it's an outrage to them. That's my problem.
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2011, 04:23:23 pm »
I am broke. All the time. That's what happens when you play aggressively.

I play much less aggressively, and I'm still broke a good deal of the time, especially in multiplayer.  I know how that goes, when you're trying not to waste time/resources.

What I mind the most is someone like the original poster who is asking for a freebie economic easy button, but when I want an economic easy button, it's an outrage to them. That's my problem.

I think where the real problem comes in is that what they're asking for is something fairly trivial that extends something already in the game and doesn't have a major affect on anything, while what you're talking about highlights a major problem in the game.  Specifically, auto-energy management suddenly gives everyone the ability to be effectively immune to having their shields go down when they lose a couple reactors, which is currently something that is only true for people who are actually good at the game.

That's what the real issue is.  Having your stuff shut down because you don't have enough energy is supposed to be (and is, if you don't run around micro-ing everything) one of the few serious threats the AI poses in an attack where it can suddenly roll right through your defenses when they all stop working.  That can already be eliminated by doing what you do, and your suggestion would completely eliminate that from the game entirely, except for very extreme situations like exo-waves taking out half a dozen systems in a row.

Maybe the real question should be how that kind of threat can be created by the AI, regardless of whether it is or isn't tied directly to energy reactor micromanagement.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2011, 04:28:00 pm »
I think where the real problem comes in is that what they're asking for is something fairly trivial that extends something already in the game and doesn't have a major affect on anything, while what you're talking about highlights a major problem in the game.
Well, to be fair, and as zebramatt basically pointed out, the original auto-build-energy-reactors controls DID start the highlight of exactly the same problem.  What Cyborg's asking for is really just the logical extension of that.  I don't think that's the right direction to go; if anything taking away the auto-build-energy-reactors controls would be more consistent, but I'm not about to do that because it would annoy me when I'm playing ;)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2011, 04:37:08 pm »
Ran another idea by Chris and he was ok with it.  It should be amusing, at least ;)

And no, you won't know what it is until it shows up in the release notes.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2011, 04:39:23 pm »
Specifically, auto-energy management suddenly gives everyone the ability to be effectively immune to having their shields go down when they lose a couple reactors, which is currently something that is only true for people who are actually good at the game.

That's what the real issue is.  Having your stuff shut down because you don't have enough energy is supposed to be (and is, if you don't run around micro-ing everything)

 ???

So what you are saying is, we should keep things the way they are now because they punish noobs? If they knew how to use the power on/off button, they would be fine, but since they don't let's let the AI trample them?

Just wondering if I read that right.
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2011, 04:43:21 pm »
So what you are saying is, we should keep things the way they are now because they punish noobs? If they knew how to use the power on/off button, they would be fine, but since they don't let's let the AI trample them?

Just wondering if I read that right.

No, I'm saying the way things currently are is broken to begin with, and your suggestion/request is only a patch over it, not addressing the root problem, and it would mess up how some things in the game are currently balanced.  I don't actually know what would fix it, though.

Ran another idea by Chris and he was ok with it.  It should be amusing, at least ;)

And no, you won't know what it is until it shows up in the release notes.

My guess: pausing and unpausing the game generates energy, just to screw with us.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2011, 04:47:34 pm »
So what you are saying is, we should keep things the way they are now because they punish noobs?
That's basically the argument behind leaving it as-is (not just Nalgas's), yes.  But psychologically for the noob it doesn't feel like punishment: it feels like fun because the AI is capable of threatening you.  Once you find out how to stop it, and if you use that approach, you lose that bit of entertainment.  So really it's you who's getting punished ;)

But I've got a couple changes planned that should at least make you laugh.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2011, 05:15:57 pm »
But I've got a couple changes planned that should at least make you laugh.

enrique Iglesias implores us not to turn out the lights? Ai-Ai Heeeey!
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2011, 05:47:50 pm »
But I've got a couple changes planned that should at least make you laugh.

enrique Iglesias implores us not to turn out the lights? Ai-Ai Heeeey!

Picturing him as the sole maintenance worker at a power generator in the depths of space singing that song...I laughed.  Heh.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2011, 06:00:40 pm »
Picturing him as the sole maintenance worker at a power generator in the depths of space singing that song...I laughed.  Heh.
Remember: automation isn't "free".  _Something_ is doing all that work.  Remember how cameras work in the Flintstones?

In this case, just think of all the hamsters scurrying back and forth to figure out which reactors to turn on and turn off.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Two small fixes for the next patch perhaps
« Reply #119 on: June 24, 2011, 06:04:39 pm »
Changes to something as fundamental as power?

I look forward to it.
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