Author Topic: Turrets and energy  (Read 2064 times)

Offline orzelek

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,096
Turrets and energy
« on: June 20, 2014, 08:19:23 pm »
Some calculations for energy for turrets (taken from ultra low caps should be same on others).
TurretCap cost
Needler19200
Laser28800
MLRS19200
Missile19200
Flak19200
Lightning38400
Sniper33600
Spider33600

Each planet gives 150k free energy and another 50k will cost 200 m/s.
Basic set of turrets (Needler, Laser, MLRS, Missile, Sniper) costs 120k per mark to put up.
So one planet can give enough energy for 1 cap of turrets for defense (slightly less if we add Spiders). Not counting lightnings or flaks here since on ultra low I haven't found a good use for them yet.

If we want to use more turret marks we need 2-3 planets to fortify one of them not including any forts or beam cannons etc. (Beams energy usage seems small atm compared to turrets - might be effect of not scaling caps also). Also lots of knowledge to get the turrets we need.

I'm interested whats the intended target for this - aka how many planets we should be able to defend in an average game (I'm playing mostly on 7 so not sure what diff change will give - I guess higher marks needed or fleet help and mines etc).

Seems for me that energy cost is a bit large at least at start and middle phase of the game. And creation of exo-grade fortifications with forts seems limited to 1-2 points and not much energy for anything else left. Ofc getting ZPG will help - or logistical stations.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 09:20:28 pm »
The price seems very reasonable to me. If strong distributed defence was affordable everywhere, it would not be an interesting strategic choice. Currently the pricing allows defence in depth with heavily defended frontline systems and with non-frontline systems either entirely undefended or having only minimum defences (e.g. highest cap of sniper, spider, and laser turrets for one good combo, replace sniper or spider for missile for another depending on circumstances), to slow down or outright kill off the occasional ships that penetrates the outer defences.

As for forts, the primary limitation that prevents their sensible deployment in more than a few heavily defended points at the same time seems to me to be their galactic caps, not their energy costs. If you've got the knowledge to spare to unlock them, surely you've conquered enough to afford to deploy them in the very limited numbers available (limited for the galaxy, I mean - there are quite a lot if you deploy them in the same location!)

If one is struggling for energy to cover huge defensive setups over multiple planets, 9000 knowledge will unlock economic stations II through III for a gain of up to 7*((75,000e+150,000e) + (160m+320m)*(50,000e/200m)) = 7* (225,000e + 120,000e) = 2,415,000e, if one has 12 planets on which to sensible deply the new stations. This will also significantly increase metal caps and hence salvage caps, and the increased salvage caps result in increased salvage gains, all of this resulting in the ability to run even more metal processors than those that the economic stations themselves can feed off their income without the economy being strained.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 09:22:00 pm by Peter Ebbesen »
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 11:27:43 pm »
I agree with Orzelek that I think turret energy costs are too high right now.  I think they should go back to what they were (1/2 of current).


While you are correct, Peter, that if you go heavy on the Econ stations and devote their resource income to powering Matter Converters, you can get 2.4M energy with 13 planets, or 4.2M energy if you include the Energy Collectors.
Defending those 13 worlds with Mk I + Mk II basic turrets (Needle, MLRS, Laser, Missile, Sniper) will cost 240,000 energy per planet, or about 3.2M energy total.
That leaves you with 1,000,000 energy to fund your offensive fleet.  You endgame fleet will usually take need between 500,000-1,000,000 energy, so it's almost exactly enough.
But you have no energy left over for Golems, Spirecraft, Fortresses, Mk III, IV, or V turrets, Spire Fleet, etc.  Your economy is lacking, because you are running 31 Matter Converters for -6,200 metal/sec.  The 9,000 Knowledge you spent on the best economic improvement isn't actually helping - you're just breaking even.  The higher salvage from Econs helps, but not much compared to what you are spending for the energy you need.

On the other hand, those defenses are at barely adequate levels.  12 worlds captured is 240 AIP.  Including max AIP reduction, on Diff 7 you're at the floor at ~60 AIP, on diff 9+ you're at roughly 110.
At Diff 7, the wave size for the Vanilla AI will be about 200-300 ships, mostly Mk I.  These defenses will easily hold off waves like that.
At Diff 9, the wave size will be 500-600 ships, 50% Mk I, 50% Mk II.  This will probably be enough to pass the turrets and destroy your command station, even under a Mk I FF.

From testing earlier today, when using the basic set of Mk I turrets:
300 Mk I triangle ships can kill an unshielded non-Military Command Station even under ideal circumstances (aka, maximum distance for turrets to shoot).
350-400 Mk I Bombers can destroy a non-Mil CS under a Mk I FF.  Took around 600 of the other triangle ships.
400 Mk II Bombers can destroy a non-Mil CS under a FF past a set of basic Mk I + Mk II turrets.  It took about 700-800 of the other Mk II triangle ships.
(Note:  This did not include the benefits from mines, Grav turrets, tractors, HBCs or other non-basic turrets)
Mk III Military Command Stations can hold off more than double the listed numbers.  Log stations were better by around 10%.
AI type can result in up to doubling the average wave size (Neinzul, Mad Bomber, and their ilk).

By the time AIP hits 200 or so (normal endgame), normal waves have a good chance of destroying their target.  Exowaves, CPAs, general threat - all these will also overwhelm your basic defenses.
This means you need to isolate planets, so they can't be attacked directly, and you can use that extra energy elsewhere.  Each isolated/protected planet lets you put Mk III turrets on 2 worlds, or adds 800 metal/sec to your economy.  Which means that, for best performance, you want to protect as many planets as possible, behind as few entry points as possible.  Say, behind 1 or two chokepoints - and only on those maps that support chokepoints - at which point, we've come full circle to what distributed defenses was supposed to prevent.

I don't say your are wrong - Going full Econ is one way to get enough energy.  If you are playing Fallen Spire, it's the best way to go.  You'll have the territory, AIP isn't a problem, and the economic boosts are so very helpful.  But in a normal low-AIP game, where a player might only capture 10-15 worlds total, requiring 12 of them just for basic defenses is... limiting.  Currently, the human player covers for inadequate fixed defenses through efficiency (mines, drones) and the fleet.  I would prefer that there be other viable strategies as well. 


As an alternative to reducing energy costs, what if you could spend Knowledge to unlock improved Energy Collectors, like you can Metal Harvesters?  A Mk II that gets 250,000 and a Mk III that gets 400,000, and auto-replaces the existing models - just like Harvesters.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 11:52:32 pm »
I'm on the fence about energy costs.

In my current co-op game, energy costs seem about right. And this isn't just Mk. I, but also two Mk. II unlocks and three Mk. Vs turret controllers. Enough to make me care about my energy reserve and make me worry about losing planets, but not enough to cramp my army to any noticeable degree. And I don't even have a Z power generator.

Then again, I don't usually place a whole cap of turrets on every planet; many times I only put like 5 of each turret type on "less important" planets, so that helps.


However, I'm not quite sure why energy costs where increased in the first place. Why was that needed, and/or what was that trying to accomplish?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 12:09:27 am by TechSY730 »

Offline ZaneWolfe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 11:57:38 pm »
On the other hand, those defenses are at barely adequate levels.  12 worlds captured is 240 AIP.  Including max AIP reduction, on Diff 7 you're at the floor at ~60 AIP, on diff 9+ you're at roughly 110.
At Diff 7, the wave size for the Vanilla AI will be about 200-300 ships, mostly Mk I.  These defenses will easily hold off waves like that.
At Diff 9, the wave size will be 500-600 ships, 50% Mk I, 50% Mk II.  This will probably be enough to pass the turrets and destroy your command station, even under a Mk I FF.

Normally I hate just taking a part of a quote rather than the entire quote, but this is the part I feel was most important. What you are saying here is that in Diff 7, where the game is supposed to be balanced at, Peter's idea works and the energy cost of turrets seems to be fine. At least, that's what I am getting from what you posted here. All things considered, the fact that at Diff 9 the energy cost of turrets really hurts you is, IMO, NOT a bad thing. You're getting right up to the top end difficulty, and it is supposed to be drastically harder there. IMO even at 7 you shouldn't be able to just place turrets everywhere you please. Even I can't quite do that and I play with Econ 300% madness.

Edit:
However, I'm not quite sure why energy costs where increased in the first place. Why was that needed, and/or what was that trying to accomplish?
As I recall, the energy cost increased because they became per planet rather than galaxy cap. Thus needed a bit stronger of a reason not to place every turret everywhere at once.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 12:00:00 am by ZaneWolfe »

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2014, 01:05:07 am »
The energy cost did not increase. The turret availability did, with the same energy cost as pre-distributable.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2014, 01:19:06 am »
I don't say your are wrong - Going full Econ is one way to get enough energy.  If you are playing Fallen Spire, it's the best way to go.  You'll have the territory, AIP isn't a problem, and the economic boosts are so very helpful.  But in a normal low-AIP game, where a player might only capture 10-15 worlds total, requiring 12 of them just for basic defenses is... limiting.  Currently, the human player covers for inadequate fixed defenses through efficiency (mines, drones) and the fleet.  I would prefer that there be other viable strategies as well. 
To me that that suggests the problem is playing higher difficulties and sticking to a low-AIP approach conquering 10-15 worlds total with a need to defend every planet instead of attempting to adapt your hitherho winning strategy where defensive strategies are concerned to the new realities, rather than a problem of the energy costs of turrets being too great.

Apart from the now finished Fallen Spire game, I tried playing a quick and dirty 9/9 (Starfleet Commmander/Vengeful, Fortress King/Attritioner) game earlier this month while waiting for the 7.034 patch to continue Ride the Lightning, playing it until around 300-320 AIP only taking down one data centre (because the darn co-processors, data centres, and super terminal started far away from my homeworld, and I didn't want to spend hours tediously killing them off early, as I wanted to see how far I could come before the patch hit), and my fixed defences were easily able to cope with waves.

I most certainly couldn't defend every planet, but then, I didn't have to since I also conquered for defensive purposes. I have no idea whether I'd have ended up winning or losing that game, had I continued rather than abandoning upon the patch, but at least there was nothing inherent about 300-320 AIP on difficulty 9/9 that made defending against waves too hard for the fixed defences and the champion exos (I had 5/10 alt champion retaliation enabled), so long as I only had to defend one or two locations from incoming waves. (To defend more incoming wave locations, I'd have had to conquer more interior systems, both gaining more energy from those and also freeing up several miminum-defence systems held off local threat from needing any defences). I wouldn't have been able to defeat both regular and exo waves without unlocking forts to bolster the defences, though, costing precious knowledge, but as I was not playing minimum AIP I did have that to spare. I was looking forwards to getting AIP reduced by that point, though, before growing much more. (And it was terribly expensive to maintain a few Golems and Spirecraft Attritioners, and Spirecraft Implosion Artilleries, since I was playing with both of those enabled as moderate settings with 10 times the energy costs. I most definitely could NOT afford to use all the many asteroids available, but had to carefully pick and choose just which strength multipliers I'd use from amongst the many Spirecraft possibilities.)

Thus it is not at all clear to me whether the received wisdom about playing ultra-low AIP on high difficulty levels being the only right way to play in the normal game go is still relevant, since I haven't actually tried to either fail or win that way, the only thing I can see is that given the current playing environment after the turret patch, if ultra-low AIP is still necessary, it surely cannot be solely because of the regular waves or threat, at least not at 9/9. Is it the difficulty of assaulting the enemy homeworld at that AIP that is the real problem?

Reading the patch notes over time and the wiki it is clear that the game over the years has had a steadily downwards trend in the amount of AIP generally considered normal to win on all difficulty levels, it would not at all surprise me if the great turret change reverted this trend and ended up bumping the standard AIP-to-win by a bit. Just a few extra systems that don't need to be defended makes a huge difference to energy and knowledge availability compared to the 10-15 planets you are used to.


If I am proved wrong, and should it turn out that these turret energy costs makes the 9+ difficulty settings really hard, is that so bad a thing?? That's what they are supposed to be according to their names, just like 8 is supposed to be hard. All I've been reading about the difficulty levels the month and a half I've been here is that the game has become too easy at the high levels and Something Needs to be Done (tm). If the turret changes help accomplish that goal, then I say 'well done'. :)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 01:25:24 am by Peter Ebbesen »
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline nitpik

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2014, 01:32:24 am »
I havn't really tried the higher mark turrets yet, but I thought the point of the higher mark versions that cost the same energy was that if you were energy limited and your defense was too weak you would replace your Mk I sniper turrets with Mk IIs, not that you would unlock Mk IIs and build both. And Mk Vs are even more powerful but with the same energy cost.

The last game I played I abused scrap and matter converters to the point that energy wasn't an issue, but are people unlocking Mk II & III turrets to allow a stronger defense for the same energy, or planning to build caps of both on multiple planets?

Offline Peter Ebbesen

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2014, 01:44:49 am »
The last game I played I abused scrap and matter converters to the point that energy wasn't an issue, but are people unlocking Mk II & III turrets to allow a stronger defense for the same energy, or planning to build caps of both on multiple planets?
How about both? Those are not mutually exclusive reasons.

It makes sense to use the highest mark turrets you've unlocked on planets with minimum defensive needs and at the same time to stack caps of several marks on critical planets that receive waves.
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline nitpik

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2014, 03:01:03 am »
Sure, 'both' is fine, as long as you have the energy for full caps of all marks at your chokepoints or HW, and a few higher marks elsewhere. I was wondering since the OP thought that energy was too limited, if maybe unlocking more Mk IIs and not building as many Mk Is, (or maybe unlocking Mk IIIs and only building them instead of the Is and IIs) might provide as good a defense, for less energy, but more of that precious, precious, knowledge.

Offline Tridus

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • I'm going to do what I do best: lecture her!
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2014, 05:51:11 am »
The energy cost did not increase. The turret availability did, with the same energy cost as pre-distributable.

No, the cost per turret doubled. Cap cost stayed the same, but you only get half as many.

Offline Tridus

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • I'm going to do what I do best: lecture her!
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2014, 09:32:18 am »
The costs are fine, in a Fallen Spire style game where you have a lot of territory and will need to defend a fair amount of it (some of it defended as heavily as you can). It makes energy not the joke that it was before in that scenario, but there is enough to generally do what you want without going crazy.

With few worlds, it hurts. You have to be very choosey. It's a lot more expensive now than it was before if you want to put ten turrets on a planet just for minimal defense (it's twice as expensive, actually). Even with five or six planets, I'm finding it hard to use a full cap on more than one planet because it leaves no energy for anything else. Let alone if I want to add other defenses like fortresses. That's just not realistic on more than one planet at a time until you have a significant number of planets.

The per turret cost right now is 2x what it used to be. Maybe 1.5x would be a better number? It's good that energy matters, but I'm not sure we're at the sweet spot yet.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2014, 09:33:19 am »
If I am proved wrong, and should it turn out that these turret energy costs makes the 9+ difficulty settings really hard, is that so bad a thing?? That's what they are supposed to be according to their names, just like 8 is supposed to be hard. All I've been reading about the difficulty levels the month and a half I've been here is that the game has become too easy at the high levels and Something Needs to be Done (tm). If the turret changes help accomplish that goal, then I say 'well done'. :)
Difficulty 10 is the "You Don't Win" level - but that's not 1 step, it's 4 steps higher than Diff 9.  On an actual 10-point scale, Diff 7 would be newDiff 1, Diff 9 would be newDiff 6, and Diff 10 would be newDiff 10.
Diff 10 has been buffed a lot recently, because people were having the temerity to actually beat it.  This is as it should be.  No cheese = no win.
But at Diff 9, there should be more than one viable strategy.  People that want to go chokepoints and high AIP should be able to, while those that go low AIP and scattered worlds should also be able to, and those that want to use Golems and Spirecraft should be able to.  Using Military or Logistics stations should be just as reasonable as using Economic stations.

What I don't want to see happen again is everyone concluding "Medium Golems can't be played at higher difficulties" or "To go above that difficulty, you need to use Econ stations on an X map". 


EDIT:
Apart from the now finished Fallen Spire game, I tried playing a quick and dirty 9/9 (Starfleet Commmander/Vengeful, Fortress King/Attritioner) game earlier this month while waiting for the 7.034 patch to continue Ride the Lightning, playing it until around 300-320 AIP only taking down one data centre (because the darn co-processors, data centres, and super terminal started far away from my homeworld, and I didn't want to spend hours tediously killing them off early, as I wanted to see how far I could come before the patch hit), and my fixed defences were easily able to cope with waves.
Meant to ask:  What exactly were your fixed defenses?!  At 300 AIP on Diff 9, your Vanilla wave size is about 900 ships.  With the various randomness and AI type multipliers, you should have been facing waves of 1500+ Mk II ships, with 1/4-1/3 being Mk III.  A basic set of Mk I+II turrets gets crushed by that level of attack.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 09:40:54 am by Toranth »

Offline Peter Ebbesen

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2014, 11:13:19 am »
Apart from the now finished Fallen Spire game, I tried playing a quick and dirty 9/9 (Starfleet Commmander/Vengeful, Fortress King/Attritioner) game earlier this month while waiting for the 7.034 patch to continue Ride the Lightning, playing it until around 300-320 AIP only taking down one data centre (because the darn co-processors, data centres, and super terminal started far away from my homeworld, and I didn't want to spend hours tediously killing them off early, as I wanted to see how far I could come before the patch hit), and my fixed defences were easily able to cope with waves.
Meant to ask:  What exactly were your fixed defenses?!  At 300 AIP on Diff 9, your Vanilla wave size is about 900 ships.  With the various randomness and AI type multipliers, you should have been facing waves of 1500+ Mk II ships, with 1/4-1/3 being Mk III.  A basic set of Mk I+II turrets gets crushed by that level of attack.
Yes, if I'd just been defending with a few turrets, I'd have been crushed by the waves for sure! But I didn't defend with such wimpy defences. :)

All damagedealing turrets except sniper and spider have a very low time on target when dealing with incoming waves, an issue magnified considerably when Gravity Turrets are in use, which means that they are distinctly secondary tier defences, which means I consider their role to be killing off the few ships (starships in particular) that survive the primary tier: sniper and spider turrets, mines, and forts. (Special exception HBCIII-IV, see later).

Why would I restrict myself to just turret unlocks when I was not playing for minimum AIP with many exposed planets, and could reasonably expect to skimp on the offensive fleet at the start in favour of defences, then pick up the offense later on as needed, after I'd finally reached those distant AIP reducers and started expansion again? I ended up leveling the Torpedo Lightning Frigate I'd chosen as my bonus pick and the Neinzul Enclaves, and together with mark I of the triangle fleetships and starships, Hydra V's, and an ARS hack for mark 1 Bulletproof, that was considerably more than enough for offensive operations when backed by two golems (armoured, cursed) and the champion ship.

As I think I noted, I had two chokepoints much of the time, one part of the time. Looking at the final save I made before the patch, I had hit 363 AIP, not the 300-320 I remembered. The chokepoints were loaded up with sniper I & II, laser I, II, & III, MLRS I, missile I, flak I, lightning I, and Gravity I-III had been plopped along the lanes of death.. I was lucky enough to get spider V and sniper V which I divided over the wave spots when I had two and concentrated when I had one (which is why I didn't unlock spider turrets). The one was my homeworld, which was the most heavily defended at all times for obvious reasons.

I had alt champion 5/10 and nemesis 5/10 enabled, which meant I fairly quickly got a mod fort to boot, the Neinzul, placed on homeworld equipped with mark 1 missiles and mark 2 shields as I didn't have any large unlocks for Neinzul, such that it covered the entire minefield, as well as the different champion-faction-bases which despite only contributing 25% damageoutput from being under forcefields do help out a bit (and of course their ships helped out my fleet too when fighting enemies that penetrated the swarms of drones, torpedoes, and missiles). The champion-faction-bases by the end also contributed around 270,000 energy, which while not earth shaking is certainly a nice addition.

II unlocked the level 1 forts, and I unlocked area minefields and mark II forcefields. I also unlocked HBC I-IV, which are so darn cheap to build that they can be reconstructed at the one of the two targeted locations upon a moment's notice upon the declaration of an incoming wave. (Whenever near the border of what I could handle given current unlocks, I'd use the safe and easy tactic of building the HBCIV and the four HBCIIIs such that they covered the lane of death where the wave entered and then rebuilding it further up the lane closer to the homeworld once it had been destroyed or the enemy passes out of reach, and doing so until was finally moved all way back to cover the lightning/flak/forcefield/normal turret trap. It is an awesome way to get the HBCIII-IVs some 80%-90% time on target during waves, though of course it requires the player to be attentive to waves reather than ignoring them.

I also had a cap of Spirecraft II Attritioners and 2 Spirecraft III Implosion Artillery backing up the homeworld, and mil II and III stations.

So as you can see, in the two important locations that got attacked by waves, I had way more than a few caps of turrets. The greatest effect is of course the combination of forts and the gravity turrets. Since forts have 100% time on target on waves when positioned correctly, their damageoutput throughout a wave fight against everything but polycrystal dwarf that of any of the non-planet-wide turrets and they also deal more damage/energy than any of the turrets over the duration of the fight. :)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 02:33:33 pm by Peter Ebbesen »
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Turrets and energy
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2014, 11:31:37 am »
Relevant, for 7.041:
Quote
* Fixed a bug from 7.036 where matter converters were not actually consuming any metal at all.

Exploit while you can ;)

On the turret energy cost thing I'm generally of the opinion that: yes, it changes the difficulty of doing certain things, but I don't think in a bad way.  That said, there are further changes coming (in 7.041 for today, if I manage it) ; can consider other adjustments after those settle out a bit.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!