Author Topic: Too Much Heap Sections ???  (Read 19501 times)

Offline Shadoz

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2011, 06:00:12 pm »
i mean
normally if you take a ship in low power mode, it dont shoot ...
normally if you cloake an ship, its cloaked until it shoot - if the cloaked ship shoots its no longer cloaked
is that right ???
the capital ships ( the custumizable super spire craft ships from fallen spire campaign - destroyer/cruiser/battleships/dreadnought) dont do this both

if take capital ships in low power mode they shoot with all guns but the main gun and if you cloak them the arent decloaked by shooting while cloaked :-)
thats what i mean ... look at the singleplayer save i explained above ... at the first netral planet next to my last owned front planet there are all the spire ships cloaked and in low power mode ... but they still shoot and kill :-)

i dont know if this should be like this ... cause the ai dont attack and cant do anythink against it and i never saw a mobile decloaker at the ai
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:01:43 pm by Shadoz »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2011, 06:01:11 pm »
What Chris (x4000) said.

I loaded up your single player game, turned on debug mode (press F3), and it told me there are about 70000 ships total in that game (around 64000 of them belonging to the AI). When you get this many ships, insane memory usage is pretty much unavoidable.

I noticed you are indeed on normal ship cap levels, so I am surprised you managed to get this many ships. That 150% handicap you gave the AI might have something to do with it though...

Offline x4000

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2011, 06:01:34 pm »
I see -- that's a bug, yes.  It's based on the modular nature of those ships.  Can you post that on mantis?
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2011, 06:02:53 pm »
I see -- that's a bug, yes.  It's based on the modular nature of those ships.  Can you post that on mantis?

I think it may already be posted on mantis.

EDIT: There is an issue describing it, but it is for Riot control starships. However, since they are both module type ships, I think it describes the same thing. It may need to be re-opened, or made a child or related to the current bug in question. It is at http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1334
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:12:08 pm by techsy730 »

Offline Red Spot

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2011, 06:06:21 pm »
No, I thought so too  :-[

I cant show it by save-game, but I have a screenshot in the after-action forum illustrating it (only realised later on I had been cheating in the later part of my game  :-\).

If no-one will post a report I will :)

edit: They shoot and are cloaked: http://members.ziggo.nl/red_spot/NOOOO!!!!.png
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:13:16 pm by Red Spot »

Offline Shadoz

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2011, 06:13:32 pm »
sry whats mantis ???

i wonder that there is so a big differencs between my multiplayer and singleplayer game cause all are the same stats only 50% more handicap in singleplayer and comparing the multi save is around 6 hours longer by played but there are only 35k ships oO ^^

i would be understand where the 64k ships should be ^^ what a pitty that this cause carshes ^^ but thats the think ... on my hand i dont need tonns of ships i cannt see or which arend direct represent for me at the next planets ...
so here an idea ... issnt there a possibility of an direct spawn of an adequat enemy fleet on only these planets where are attacks are possiple ??? i mean these 64k enemy ships in my save are extremly unusefully at this moment at point ... around 10k are on the netral planet and not more than 5k on the next enemy planet ... than there are around 35-40k enemys which are unused at this moment cause they are not in danger by me ...
so all these unused ships should could be in "mind" at where they are and spawn only if there are a danger around there planets ...

issnt it a start of an idea of handle the ai ships in other way ??? so much ships cause only memory crashes and arent in use :D
my normal method is to go from planet to planet and take them ... i dont fly with an fleet 35 planets across without killem ...
and for players who handle this it works too if only the enemy ships are spawn on these planets which are next to danger / next to an planet where the human go the first time ...

please think about if there would be an possibility of having new idea on changing the method of handling these much enemy ships cause 40k are unused for this moment at my example save ^^

Offline x4000

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 06:18:43 pm »
When you increase the AI's handicap, that gives them more ships.  So in this case, they have 50% more ships than they otherwise would for that reason.  That's why this save is so much larger, I'd wager.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2011, 06:27:03 pm »
sry whats mantis ???

i wonder that there is so a big differencs between my multiplayer and singleplayer game cause all are the same stats only 50% more handicap in singleplayer and comparing the multi save is around 6 hours longer by played but there are only 35k ships oO ^^

i would be understand where the 64k ships should be ^^ what a pitty that this cause carshes ^^ but thats the think ... on my hand i dont need tonns of ships i cannt see or which arend direct represent for me at the next planets ...
so here an idea ... issnt there a possibility of an direct spawn of an adequat enemy fleet on only these planets where are attacks are possiple ??? i mean these 64k enemy ships in my save are extremly unusefully at this moment at point ... around 10k are on the netral planet and not more than 5k on the next enemy planet ... than there are around 35-40k enemys which are unused at this moment cause they are not in danger by me ...
so all these unused ships should could be in "mind" at where they are and spawn only if there are a danger around there planets ...

issnt it a start of an idea of handle the ai ships in other way ??? so much ships cause only memory crashes and arent in use :D
my normal method is to go from planet to planet and take them ... i dont fly with an fleet 35 planets across without killem ...
and for players who handle this it works too if only the enemy ships are spawn on these planets which are next to danger / next to an planet where the human go the first time ...

please think about if there would be an possibility of having new idea on changing the method of handling these much enemy ships cause 40k are unused for this moment at my example save ^^

Mantis is the suggestion and bug tracker. It can be found at http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
Sadly, it does not use your forum account information; you will need to create a new account for it. You should be able to use the same user-name and password as you do for your forum account though.

Anyways, about the unused ship thing. There are already several measures in place to have the AI use some of their excess ships. Once a planet it reinforced "enough", the AI will send some of its excess defenders to attack you (this is called border aggression). There is also the barracks and the carrier mechanics (which saves memory, because they don't store full fledged ships, just ship types and counts).
There are also cross planet attacks, where the AI sends a bunch of previously defending ships to go attack your planets, and the rarely seen scrap waves (I'm not really sure how those work or where they get the ships from).
Thus, the AI has plenty of tools to put "remote unused ships" to use.

However, the AI won't try to send those "freed defenders" through the wormhole to attack until it is confident that it has a reasonable chance to win that battle. Thanks to the absurd number of ships you have on your bottleneck planet (in your single player game), it will take a similarly absurd number of ships from the AI before it decides to go in.
Plus, those "waiting" ships only total to 10000 ships, or about 1/6 of the ships the AI has. I'm not sure why border aggression isn't kicking in more. Or for that matter, why aren't carriers being created more.

One last thing, about your multi-player size question. The memory limits can be hit in multi-player a little faster because if there are two players, the AI is slightly less than twice as strong, so it can still put up a fight. This would imply getting around twice as many ships, thus hitting memory problems earlier.

Sorry for the long posts, but answering your questions required going over a lot of information.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:39:08 pm by techsy730 »

Offline Shadoz

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2011, 06:33:18 pm »
so what about my idea about other handling for enemy ships ???
if these tons of ships 70k cause crash it would be extremly decreasing of ram if you use my idea ...

all the enemy ships should be a value in the galaxy and be in mind as an information in the game
planet "xyz" have these and those ship types etc. but all these are spawned / animated / displayed and so on first than if on one of its next to planets a human ships arrives for first time

example:

(easy chematic - 3 planets in a line)

A  -  B  -  C

A= Human planet
B= Enemy planet ( human was never there - no scout no ships )
C= Enemy planet ( but all its ships arent "really" there - only in "mind")

Scenario :
Human player arrives for the first time on planet B by scout / any ship
--> planet C is on a possible danger and spawns all its ships with ther position and so on whats saved before in "mind" after Human player came through the wormhole from planet A to B


Offline x4000

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2011, 06:34:10 pm »
For a lot of technical reasons, that wouldn't be possible.
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Offline Shadoz

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2011, 06:42:03 pm »
ah dammed - what a pitty

but is there a similar way or somethinke like this other way ???



btw i asked some post before if all this much ships cause crashes ... why you can choose so extremly heavy thinks at options before starting a game if no one can use it ???
so its unpossiple to play a 120 map with extreme raiders diff 10 +300% handicap high ship caps and 5(-16) starting home planets ... so all the values should be exponential increase and on the playing time where iam at singleplayer with 12 hours the ai have more than 250k ships in galaxy (if this would be enough) ... ? ? ? ? ?
no one can handle it ... what a pitty would be nice to play a hardcore game with all maxed out :-) ... for 10 minutes fun than first crash hehe ^^

is there any hoping that a game like this can happen in future ???

what a pitty at all :-(

and my game is not a big game yet i think only 70k enemys thats not much i need more :-)

Offline x4000

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2011, 07:09:35 pm »
We already have quite a few such optimizations in place for CPU, but not for RAM.

In terms of having a lot of planets plus a high bonus, that's something that currently kicks the game over the limit, but that's not always been the case.  Before we were on the Unity engine, we did not have this problem, and our hope is that the Unity engine will improve. 

In terms of the various settings options, most of them can work just fine, but when you stack all the lots-of-ships options on top of one another, you can run into an issue.  High ship caps is just fine, but not if you also do the highest planets, and the same for large handicaps for the AIs, etc.  Individually they are all fine, but the more you stack them together, you can run into problems in some cases.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 11:12:11 pm »
I'll push out a new beta tonight with some of those ideas in place to see how they do.

Still planning on doing this?

Don't worry, I won't start pestering you again like I did for 5.001; if the answer is no, I won't ask again anytime soon.  :)

Offline x4000

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2011, 11:12:45 pm »
Yes, but I'm not done yet.  What is done so far is pretty wicked, though -- more than I could have guessed would be possible.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Too Much Heap Sections ???
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 11:17:20 pm »
Yes, but I'm not done yet.  What is done so far is pretty wicked, though -- more than I could have guessed would be possible.

As soon as I posted my question, I checked the change log and saw that amazing piece of optimization. How on earth did you pull off that much savings in RAM usage? (Rhetorical question; I know that answering that in any sort of satisfactory way would probably take like an essay  :D)

Looking forward to seeing the RAM savings and how many bugs you introduced. ;)

 

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