Author Topic: Too many ship types?  (Read 9410 times)

Offline CogDissident

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Too many ship types?
« on: November 23, 2010, 04:36:58 pm »
With the new additions of guardians as AI unique ships, and the new ships added in light of the spire, I've noticed that the AI has an extraordinary number of ships.

One game last night I was playing with Draco18s, and we were about two hours in or so, at 130 AI progress, and I took a look at one of the AIs. He had 13 unique ships (not counting fighter/bomber/missile frigates), in addition to 10 different kinds of guardians present at a system. This isn't just hard to keep track of,  it is literally impossible. You just have to build a fleet that can kill anything regardless of bonuses/penalties. And that is just for one AI, the other one had another 12-13 ships of its own unlocked


There is no way a player can be reasonably expected to keep track of 30 different kinds of mobile ships that the AI fields. I thought the idea was that the AI unlocks 2 at the start each, and slowly gets a few more as the game goes on? What happened to that? Now they just field whatever they like at all times? And because of this, the fleet blob is the only viable tactic, just build a fleet with equal bonuses to every ship type since the AI is always going to be fielding armies of every ship type.

I miss the old AI war, where we actually could build around what the AI had unlocked, and try to actually focus research and tactical maneuvers based on that, rather than just building the same boring blob of ships and throwing them at the enemy...

:(

Offline x4000

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 04:40:15 pm »
I'm not going to get into a huge debate about this, but I will say the following:

1. The AI gets the same sort of base ship unlocks as it always has.  The guardians are in addition to this, sure.  And some AI types have loads of extra bonus ships, same as always.  It's possible you were running into one of those.

2. The guard posts all have a more limited number of ship types at each one.  So generally you should be planning out raids against individual guard posts, with the appropriate mix of ships for each one.

3. All the added ships are intended to make for more variance between the various planets, so that you have to asses and strategize with each one (and indeed each raid against guard posts) each time.  Rather than the old way of getting one strategic mix at the start, and then just rolling with that for the rest of the campaign, this makes you think up new things the whole time.
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Offline CogDissident

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 04:48:07 pm »
I'm still a bit confused by the concept of raiding guard posts... Whenever I enter a system, the entire system abandons their post to come attack me (which is likely caused by starships with my fleet), so I end up fighting them right there. And since systems reinforce constantly, the only choice is to either pop their home command station (and thus kill guardians as they trickle through the gate), or kill the fleet in a big battle right at the gate that you will usually loose due to them always reinforcing.

Actually, thinking of it, I've attacked with just fleet ships and the AI sends all the ships guarding every post at me. And in most cases the posts die to a single volley from ships good against it.

So, in summary, why am I raiding systems to take out guard posts, when it is better to pop their command station, run back through the gate, and kill them as they slowly trickle in to attack my system, then kill the guardposts afterwards? (and shields tend to just mean one detour with a transport and some bombers before killing the command post)

That doesn't really feel like "assessing and strategizing" to me. Just throwing a hammer and the problem and then cleaning up the pieces of glass that nick you painfully afterward.

Offline x4000

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 04:51:23 pm »
I'm still a bit confused by the concept of raiding guard posts... Whenever I enter a system, the entire system abandons their post to come attack me (which is likely caused by starships with my fleet), so I end up fighting them right there. And since systems reinforce constantly, the only choice is to either pop their home command station (and thus kill guardians as they trickle through the gate), or kill the fleet in a big battle right at the gate that you will usually loose due to them always reinforcing.

That's not the normal behavior.  That's either:
1. You're playing against a Tag Teamer type of AI, or.
2. Your longer-range ships are spraying shots all over the place and "enraging" the entire planet at once, which is generally not a good thing.  If you have snipers with you, that might do it.

Actually, thinking of it, I've attacked with just fleet ships and the AI sends all the ships guarding every post at me. And in most cases the posts die to a single volley from ships good against it.

Sounds like a Tag Teamer AI, then.

So, in summary, why am I raiding systems to take out guard posts, when it is better to pop their command station, run back through the gate, and kill them as they slowly trickle in to attack my system, then kill the guardposts afterwards? (and shields tend to just mean one detour with a transport and some bombers before killing the command post)

That doesn't really feel like "assessing and strategizing" to me. Just throwing a hammer and the problem and then cleaning up the pieces of glass that nick you painfully afterward.

You're in quite an unusual situation, that's not the normal behavior of the AI at all.  The ships from any given guard post only engage you when you are in range of one of their guardians, or when you fire on one of their ships guarding that specific guard post.
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 04:57:12 pm »
If you arn't being challenged cleaning up systems, you probably need to increase your AI difficulty.  Playing command station assassin against a system with, say, 1000 MK IV ships+guardians is usually a huge mistake. It's also the case that you often do not want to kill a systems command station to save yourself the AI progress hit.

Also, preemptively falling back to your own system to take on the AI ships increases your firepower (from the turrets) but it also puts your back against the wall. You have no room to maneuver or retreat if the AI forces reach your command station. Plus, if you give the AI the chance, it will conduct a mass assault with every ship, rather than the easily digestable single-guard-post chunks that are present in the enemy system.

edit:@x4000 - I should mention, if you bring Siege Starships, they love to poke every guardian with range for soopah aggro. :^)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 05:00:18 pm by TheDeadlyShoe »

Offline x4000

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 04:58:24 pm »
Oh, it could also be translocators messing up your ships or similar.  Or actually an AI Eye that's sending all the ships in response to a too-large fleet.  But my post above is correct about the normal behavior of the AI, something else is triggering what's happening here.
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Offline HitmanN

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2010, 05:50:47 pm »
Based on the several games I've played with 4.0, I'd have to agree with the OP that the AI tends to mostly behave the way they describe, though it is clearly dependent on the AI type too. However, I'd say it can't be called 'uncommon', because it happens more often than sometimes. Whether it's being caused by the AI type, ranged units shooting at everything or whatever, I do think it happens too easily, regardless. I'm sure upping the AI difficulty would make things harder, but what if I'm content with the difficulty of everything else I'm facing. Why would I want to up the overall difficulty just to make one thing more challenging and everything else too difficult. It's really more a balance issue, I reckon.

I dunno. I just feel like the AI has become a bit too predictable in these situations, and that makes the specific area in its behaviour weak and easy. Unless you are indeed facing planets with a ton of ships, you can always count on the fact that going in and out of the AI planet will cause it to send majority of its forces after you, to your turf where they are at disadvantage, instead of fighting alongside the planet's defenses, including guard posts. That's one reason why I'd personally prefer guardians don't exit the AI planet unless the command station is lost. That way at least some of its forces were to stay behind, even when using this tactic, even if it's just some guardians. And really, a dozen high-mark guardians is nothing to laugh at... until they follow your fleet to your defenses and you pummel them with twice the firepower.

I dare say, this behaviour IS common to all of my games, early and endgame, regardless of AI type, difficulty 7-7.6. Yet the difficulty isn't too easy for me, because I've lost games with the same settings. But offense... it's nearly always way too easy because the AI wastes its defenses with behaviour like that. If they were instead to pile their defenses at the wormhole you attacked from, but not send them through, THAT could make things a lot harder. Having to face everything at once, on the AI's turf, alongside any nasties the AI can also have, like ion cannons, OMD's, armor inhibitors/boosters, etc.

Also, I think there should be an option to do something like halve the selection of bonus ships both the player and AI get, to give those hull types and multipliers a bigger meaning. It's a thing that doesn't need to be awfully balanced, IMO. I've actually enjoyed the few times I've faced AI ships that have a hull type none of my mobile ships, sometimes even defenses, are particularly good against, as long as it's defendable somehow. The bigger the selection of stuff on both sides, the bigger the chances you'll have a counter for everything, and the less likely it is that the AI would have a lot of something you have nothing to overpower with.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 05:59:07 pm by HitmanN »

Offline orzelek

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2010, 06:54:16 pm »
There is one simple reason why whole AI planet attacks you - you attacked any of ships near the command center. This is guaranteed attack of anything in the area. And it's not for your ships - they seem to try to go to your planets (not sure about this part tho).

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 08:05:09 pm »
Regarding what the OP said, I am personally fine with the mix of ships the AI uses.

Sure, Guardians require a healthy mix of units to take out effectively, but that's how the game is meant to be played.  At some point in the game, you should have MKIV versions of at least every "triangle ship" there is.  The knowledge and cost associated with using triangle ships, as well as their effectiveness (which is being buffed even more soon), almost makes it insane not to.

The strategy comes in when you decide what ORDER to unlock them, which can actually make a huge difference in the mid-to-late game.  Obviously you aren't going to have 15,000 knowledge simply sitting around waiting to be used, so you have to choose which order you want your triangle ships, as well as other key knowledge upgrades in between those things.

For example, if I'm going against a Mad Bomber AI, chances are I am going to want to unlock MKIV fighters ASAP, and probably a couple level of Riot Control Starships as well, to prevent getting swarmed by 1000 bombers and losing early on.  If I'm going against The Fortress Baron, chances are I'm going to want to unlock MKIV bombers and maybe upgraded bomber starships before I unlock the upper levels of anything else.  If I'm going against The Feeding Parasite, chances are I'm going to want to unlock my MKIV frigates etc.

From my experience (at least with the base game), the fleet composition you end up using in the very late game is almost always the same; the diversity and decision making comes in when CHOOSING what order to unlock the ships, which can have a very big impact on how successful you are up to that point (the late game), and can even, often times, decide whether you win or lose.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 08:07:11 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline Arcain_One

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2010, 08:43:21 pm »
How many types of ships the AI has shouldn't be a problem, though the player is never expected to definitedly counter each and every one they are expected to cope with any situation with varying degrees of strategy, which brings us to the theme and problem of this thread: the way AI consistently and predictably counterattacks when the player attacks their planet.

How the AI handles an attack needs to be reviewed again. Lets start brainstorming!

They need flanking, regrouping, and retreating.
They should have units that stand their ground to fight to the death protecting the thing they are guarding.
The counter attack mechanic it is using now is good and should stay in with the addition of more mechanics.
Perhaps there should be guards that run to attack the moment a threatening enemy ship appears on the planet.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment is rotating guards, between guard post (special forces already simulate this cross planet).
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2010, 09:06:44 pm »
wha? You need you some more ship types in there. Add a half dozen starship types etc.....  :D
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2010, 09:13:12 pm »
Maybe it is the prevalent use of long range ships (I'm looking at you, siege starship) that is causing the AI to free too many units. Maybe some adjustment to the logic is needed such that the AI can have a unit move away from what it is guarding when under fire, but not free it from guarding all together. They seem to do this some, but the ratio of ships that are fully freed when attacked is too high. Also, I like that idea of some ships/guardians being assigned perma-guard duty; they will never be freed until the command station on that planet dies.

In response to the suggestion to have the AI flank, regroup, and retreat, the AI already does this, but just not often enough (the ratio of ships that flank is too small, the cutoff health for a retreat is too low, and the amount of time the AI will try to attack before even considering a retreat is too high, and the only time I have seen the AI regroup consistently is when moving into enemy territory, and only sometimes do they do it when a new higher priority target becomes vulnerable)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 09:17:40 pm by techsy730 »

Offline Signata

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2010, 11:52:05 pm »
Would adjusting the siege starship to be focus fire only be too annoying? I'm thinking like the spire ship that does a trillion damage points and then has to take a breather for a half hour. The only way to fire that thing is to tell it to fire. Maybe siege starships should be the same way. It's pretty hard to fly around in a planet without pissing off three or four clusters of guard posts, or even just warping in your siege ships at all, if the posts are close.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 12:15:33 am »
I'm not sure why you guys keep considering Siege Starships the problem.  It seems like there is this massive community stigma against the Starship, when I call tell you from experience, you do not need them to win (nor to provoke a counter-attack).  You can do perfectly fine without them.

From my experience, when you kill the AI Orbital Command on any given planet, 90% of the time they send more or less everything against you.  What does this have to do with Siege Starships?
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Offline Signata

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Re: Too many ship types?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 12:59:10 am »
Eh, not sure if that was directed at me, but I have nothing against the siege starship; I love them in fact---and of course wiping out the command station will flush the planet catastrophically most of the time. I think the issue here is that ultra-long-range ships are causing multiple posts to become enraged at once. If the emergence wormhole is within Siege range of several posts, it means you undoubtedly are instantly having to fend of huge waves of angry AI ships because the starships fired rounds into the nearby posts. Their massive range means they "activate" large portions of the planet just by flying through them and making it more difficult to attack in a surgical manner. Probably not as much of a problem on early planets. Target to fire would solve this problem, though would increase micro.

Anyway. I love starships. I usually have every single type built and have them deployed in tactically important positions within the fleet and elsewhere.