Thoughts on the salvage mechanic

[Draco18s]

"Forest Fire"?  That sounds pretty safe.

That's actually one of the descriptors it uses to warn you about expected hacking response

I think you missed the hidden link.

[keith.lamothe]

"Forest Fire"?  That sounds pretty safe.

That's actually one of the descriptors it uses to warn you about expected hacking response

I think you missed the hidden link.

Oh, I saw it, I just knew better than to click (until now, at least)


On the "AI salvage remembering what generated thing" I think what I'll try on that is having it remember where all the salvage came from, but only "spend" 50% of it trying to replicate the source.  The other 50% would be spent according to normal-ish wave logic as now.

That way we avoid situations where you lose a full stack of bombers and the AI throws back a ton of younglings (and thus gives you next-to-no salvage in return compared to what you lost) or vice versa.  That random-50% could still be pretty wildly off but it's a different order of magntiude of possible variance.

Thoughts?

[Toranth]

I was experimenting with the new salvage stuff, when I suddenly actually thought for a moment about what was supposed to be happening.  And I mean, in a high-level way, not with the numbers.  So if you'll forgive me, I'm going to step back a moment and expound upon my understanding of these recent changes.

What ocurred to me is this:  The recent patches haven't added one new mechanic.  They have actually introduced two new mechanics, both interesting, that are actually different.

First, we have the human Salvage mechanic.  This is a simple concept:  The human gets additional income when AI stuff dies on a human planet.  The details of efficiency, decay time, etc, are fairly minor.  The idea is to let the Human play get more resources from defending.

The second new feature is the AI Reprisal mechanic.  This gives the AI additional units to attack the player with when the player loses units in AI territory.  While similar in basic concept to the Salvage mechanic, the utter differences between the Human and the AI player's economies mean that the Reprisal needs to work entirely differently.  But the basic idea is that the AI get's a bonus for killing the player's units (phrased differently, the player is punished for a losing units).


Then these two ideas are combined in an attempt to reduce refleeting times.  The Salvage increases the player's income.  The Reprisal allows (forces?) the player to defend more, increasing the player's income through Salvage.
The problem I see when I step back like this is that a simple incoming increasing mechanic (salvage) is being used second-hand by an already moderately-complicated mechanic (Reprisal) to produce a desired third goal.  This seems unnecessarily complicated to me. 

A more strightforward approach that would accomplish the same goal (reducing refleeting times) would be to simply increase the efficiency of the Salvage mechanic, increase the storage benefit granted by Command Stations, or both.
The Reprisal mechanic could then stand alone, as a much simpler mechanic to encourage players to preserve their fleets better.  It would be much easier to balance when your concern is primarily 'How strong is this AI wave?' over 'How strong is it AND how much metal does it cost?"  Clearly separating the two ideas also allows for more versatility and potential growth in the mechanics. 
For example, expanding Reprisal to include more than straight waves.  Perhaps Threatfleet, SF, or Reserve bonuses, or mino-exos, or H/Ks, or anything else that might act in ways other than immediately attacking the human player's planets.
For example, allowing buildings (refineries?) or Spire cities or Trader Goodies to increase the Salvage efficiency without worrying that Reprisals will suddenly give too much income.
For example, an AI Type 'Junkyard Dog' or such, that gets double Reprisal waves - without needing to worry to much about what that does to player income.
For example, TheOverWhelming's idea to work Cleanup Drones into the mix.  Maybe the AI only gets Reprisal credit if there is a Cleanup Drone present.  The player can then prevent that by hunting down the cloaked Cleanup Drone before committing to an all-out attack.  And all this complication again, without worrying about if this will impact your refleet reduction attempts.

[keith.lamothe]

What ocurred to me is this:  The recent patches haven't added one new mechanic.  They have actually introduced two new mechanics, both interesting, that are actually different.

More than that, actually.  There's the variable metal storage thing too.  And the combination of metal+crystal has a somewhat-significant related impact, even if it's the removal of a mechanic rather than the introduction of them.

Basically I was trying to kill two birds with one stone.

Or rather multiple birds with multiple stones.

Or rather I was trying to catch a whole flock in enfilade with a gun that shoots explosive bolas

But the basic idea is that the AI get's a bonus for killing the player's units (phrased differently, the player is punished for a losing units).

I wouldn't go so far as to say "punished".  In many cases (even without Salvage) AI units being thrown at you is more opportunity than punishment.

Also, even if you don't gain any reclaimed units or salvaged resources, I'm not sure the connotation is right: what's more "punishing" to the player as a person: 1000 angry fighters or 10 extra minutes of refleeting?  Not that the two quantities are proportionate, just conceptually.

Then these two ideas are combined in an attempt to reduce refleeting times.  The Salvage increases the player's income.  The Reprisal allows (forces?) the player to defend more, increasing the player's income through Salvage.
The problem I see when I step back like this is that a simple incoming increasing mechanic (salvage) is being used second-hand by an already moderately-complicated mechanic (Reprisal) to produce a desired third goal.  This seems unnecessarily complicated to me.

If reduction of refleeting time was my only (or even primary) goal in these mechanics, I would agree.

But that's not the primary concern, because:

1) Feedback was heavily mixed on whether refleet times were even much of a problem anymore.  It was clear enough that a significant portion of players would have more net fun if said times were reduced, so I take that seriously, but I didn't see it as a critical issue.

2) Much more clearly, the refleeting problem was wider in scope than the time it took.  The problem included (and indeed is mainly composed of, in my opinion) a lack of interesting things happening during that time.

3) In addition to that lack-of-interest, the fact that casualties didn't really mean much struck me as an opportunity to add interest overall.

So the combined effect I was going for includes:
1) Reducing the actual time it takes to gather the resources to refleet (via salvage-in-player-territory, and very indirectly through salvage-in-AI-territory)
2) Reducing the part of that remaining refleet time in which nothing interesting is happening (via salvage-in-AI-territory)
3) Reducing the chance that a player would continue practices that involve total fleet wipes, by increasing the consequences of said (via salvage-in-AI-territory)


And there are other directions Reprisal could be taken, sure, but I wanted to stick to the simple and relatively-easy-to-handle approach of waves so that the result was not too much of a kick in the pants.  Unless you're in a cross-planet-wave setup (by lobby setting or warp gate pruning) you have a fairly easy chance to wipe out that wave before it becomes long term threat.  It can still kill you if it gets out of hand (hence increasing interest and consequences) but it's not likely to get out of hand once you know what's going on. 

If even a portion went to long term threat I'd think of that more as a plot-based thing rather than a core mechanic because it starts to take control of the pace away from the player.  Though I'm totally up for tying it into new AI Types and/or Plots, as you suggested.  But one thing at a time

As far as assassinating cleanup drones to avoid Reprisal... even after a bit of thought that sounds like it would add more frustration than fun.  Possibly adding a new AI structure seeded on a few planets that increases AI salvage efficiency on that planet and adjacent ones, so there would only be a handful of such assassinations you'd be asked to consider in a given game.

[RockyBst]

AI salvage definitely gives a whole new dimension to 'oh hell, the special forces just showed up with 3k ships. LEG IT'.

Then there's the utterly insane fallen spire assaults. Only on the third shard chase, and at one point I've already had 100,000+ metal per second from salvage. Gets to the point where you need to keep a fleet of engineers and a superfort on standby just to drain off some of the excess before it all gets lost to the ether. After 15 hours spent with these changes, I've got to say this is a real breath of fresh air.

[keith.lamothe]

AI salvage definitely gives a whole new dimension to 'oh hell, the special forces just showed up with 3k ships. LEG IT'.

I love those moments.  If only we could license the A-Team theme...

100,000+ metal per second from salvage.

At some point I imagine it reaches atmospheric density, and you just install large vacuums on your space docks.

But even that would diminish to 10k by the end of 4 minutes, 1k by the end of 8, 100 by the end of 12, and gone not long after that.

After 15 hours spent with these changes, I've got to say this is a real breath of fresh air.

Very glad to hear it

[Draco18s]

Or rather I was trying to catch a whole flock in enfilade with a gun that shoots explosive bolas

A little birdie tells me that bola guns never end well.

[keith.lamothe]

A little birdie tells me that bola guns never end well.

AIW is all about gloriously un-well endings.

[Toranth]

Basically I was trying to kill two birds with one stone.

Or rather multiple birds with multiple stones.

Or rather I was trying to catch a whole flock in enfilade with a gun that shoots explosive bolas

Ah.  I had finally realized that it was odd to be tweaking this mechanic to get a different result out of that one, but if you were already aiming to accomplish multiple things, then it makes more sense.

Of course, there are already some unexpected results coming from this.  For example, it might be a good idea to rename the Golemite AI type to be the Free Money AI type.  I'd lure the Golems to my Homeworld, and as a result I'd built a ZPG, a OMD, and a BHG shortly after hour 1.  Even with a full cap of Mk I engineers assisting, I actually couldn't spend the income fast enough.  If I'd had the energy to place a SuperFortress, I could have finished it by Hour 2, no problem.
Of course, it wasn't Free Money, I did sort of work for it... the Loan Shark AI type?

The One-way Doormaster also just jumped a difficulty level since every time your fleet goes out, it's a choice between 10 AIP and a fleetwipe + large Reprisal wave.  Doormaster also got a difficulty boost from the hacking Sabotoage cost increase (boo).
Mad Bombers get their normal multiplier, meaning Reprisals are also doubly nasty.

About the minor faction stuff.

I think that if the AI does not get scrap for non-human direct controlled minor faction stuff, neither should the human get scrap for non-AI direct controlled minor faction stuff.
Similar thing for direct human/ai controlled minor faction stuff.

I think I'd prefer it that everything gives salvage, unless it breaks the game.  Dyson Gatlings are amazingly suicidal and uncontrollable, so shouldn't give the AI salvage.  Zombies are the same.  But Roaming Enclaves tend to help their side and protect themselves - letting those give salvage to either enemy shouldn't break things.  Marauders and Resistance probably shouldn't, Zenith Miners shouldn't, Dark Spire shouldn't, Minor Faction Nebula Units shouldn't.
Hmm.  Sounds like I almost agree with you.  Probably simpler to say that no minor faction does, rather than saying that just Roaming Enclaves and Preservation Wardens do but nothing else does.

I'd also suggest that Warheads and normal suicide units (Autobomb, Nanoswarm, Spire Ram, MiniRam) don't give Salvage to anyone, either.

Quoting myself here for bad taste, but also because I'm changing my mind again.  In my current game with both Roaming Enclaves and Preservation Wardens enabled, at the hour 1 mark I'd killed 3 Enclaves and about 200 of their spawn.  They'd killed about 200 of my fleetships in exchange.  I'd like to have gotten something in exchange for that constant harassment.

[keith.lamothe]

Ah.  I had finally realized that it was odd to be tweaking this mechanic to get a different result out of that one, but if you were already aiming to accomplish multiple things, then it makes more sense.

And it is good to note that the reprisal waves don't have to be composed with the goal of providing a roughly proportionate amount of metal as went into it.  In the end I decided against any component of "sends back the same ships you lost" for now.  Because either way it accomplishes the goal of cutting down the amount of refleeting time that is dead time.  Providing additional metal is a very secondary goal for that particular mechanic.

Of course, there are already some unexpected results coming from this.  For example, it might be a good idea to rename the Golemite AI type to be the Free Money AI type.  I'd lure the Golems to my Homeworld, and as a result I'd built a ZPG, a OMD, and a BHG shortly after hour 1.  Even with a full cap of Mk I engineers assisting, I actually couldn't spend the income fast enough.  If I'd had the energy to place a SuperFortress, I could have finished it by Hour 2, no problem.
Of course, it wasn't Free Money, I did sort of work for it... the Loan Shark AI type?

Yea, I was gonna say that any tactic that involves "lure the AI golems to your homeworld" isn't trivial   "Step 1) Invite the Bear to tea..."

But it is possible that golems should not contribute their entire metal cost on death (to either the human or the AI).

The One-way Doormaster also just jumped a difficulty level since every time your fleet goes out, it's a choice between 10 AIP and a fleetwipe + large Reprisal wave.  Doormaster also got a difficulty boost from the hacking Sabotoage cost increase (boo).

Yea, might be time to drop the AIP cost of BHGs to 5 or something like that.

Mad Bombers get their normal multiplier, meaning Reprisals are also doubly nasty.

True, the strength threshold for a Reprisal wave is based on whatever that AI would normally try to launch as a wave (assuming no interval-length multiplier), so the Mad Bomber builds up to larger ones.  On the other hand it also takes more casualties on your side to generate enough strength for that.


On the minor faction stuff I'm leaning towards trying to have all of them give salvage to the player (but not to the AI, as we don't want minor factions generating offensive AI ships unless that's their specific purpose).  Of course, people will then mine the Zenith Miners, but turnabout is fair play.  The possible Dark Spire exploits would be amusing.

[Draco18s]

Of course, people will then mine the Zenith Miners, but turnabout is fair play.  The possible Dark Spire exploits would be amusing.

This seems highly appropriate for some reason.

OTOH, hostile dyson gatlings.

Actually I think I'm cool with that.

[Chthon]

On the minor faction stuff I'm leaning towards trying to have all of them give salvage to the player (but not to the AI, as we don't want minor factions generating offensive AI ships unless that's their specific purpose).  Of course, people will then mine the Zenith Miners, but turnabout is fair play.  The possible Dark Spire exploits would be amusing.

I'm actually thinking that minor faction ships that start in nebulas should provide salvage to the AI for the first 5 minutes of their emergence.  This to nerf deepstriking to do nebula missions with shadow ships.  Or perhaps have all minor faction ships in deepstrike range (except dysons) give the AI Salvage.

[Toranth]

On the minor faction stuff I'm leaning towards trying to have all of them give salvage to the player (but not to the AI, as we don't want minor factions generating offensive AI ships unless that's their specific purpose).  Of course, people will then mine the Zenith Miners, but turnabout is fair play.  The possible Dark Spire exploits would be amusing.

I'm actually thinking that minor faction ships that start in nebulas should provide salvage to the AI for the first 5 minutes of their emergence.  This to nerf deepstriking to do nebula missions with shadow ships.  Or perhaps have all minor faction ships in deepstrike range (except dysons) give the AI Salvage.

If something like this was implemented, you'd need to adjust the map to prevent Nebula from linking to AI Homeworlds and Coreworlds and other unfriendly places.

[RockyBst]

Hmm, piss off the dyson sphere and get an additional line of income from your base defences trashing gatlings. That would possibly make a bit of a mockery of the advanced hybrid plot.

[ZaneWolfe]

Hmm, piss off the dyson sphere and get an additional line of income from your base defences trashing gatlings. That would possibly make a bit of a mockery of the advanced hybrid plot.

Yeah but even with Advanced Hybrids 10/10 it takes a long time for the Antagonizer to build. And then there is what happens if you leave it alone too long and can't get there in time to stop what comes next.