Author Topic: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic  (Read 7089 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2014, 09:20:22 pm »
Aside from the potential very large size of the early game reprisal waves, I haven't identified anything I actual have a problem with right now.  Sorry if I sounded like I was complaining.
Oh, didn't sound like complaining at all. 

Maybe I forgot to turn off the "ominously repressive" switch on the voice amplifier.  Hmm.  *click*  Let's try "oddly disconcerting".

I'm very grateful for feedback, especially on new mechanics, and especially in a manner focused on "what's actually happening" as in the case of your post.  "What might possibly happen?" is also valuable in proportion, but tends to be more of a doubt than a question, and thus not susceptible to answers.


Quote
Changing the conversion ratio means "More Metal-More AI Ships" or "Less Metal-Fewer AI Ships".  Right now, using the Bomber as a basis, you get the 2nd worst (meaning fewest AI ships) of all fleetship conversions.  Only the TDL gets a worse ratio.  But that also means the AI gets the 2nd fewest possible ships out of a reprisal.  Since my only real concern so far is the added strength of the reprisal waves, I'm not yet in favor of upping that even for a mometary reward.
Well, bear in mind that the switch need not be a net increase in resulting pain (or resulting metal).  The AI's % "take" (which, as you mentioned, is in a mathematically-similar role to the unit-to-salvage conversion function) could be adjusted downward by whatever factor seemed appropriate to achieve the desired level.

In that light, the only question (I think) that bears on whether to use convert-by-metal or convert-by-strength is which metric gives the most "accurate" results.  In other words, how much _should_ the AI be throwing back in response to X of Y?

But you bring up a good point on the convert-by-strength proposal: it would make younglings count the same as normal triangle ships.  That's... a bit too harsh.  I'm all for the concept that Salvage brings of "casualties matter", even with things built around the concept of high-casualties (as those tend to be more effective than is particularly balanced), but we don't need to nail the pendulum to the other wall.


Even with convert-by-metal, the player can wind up getting the short end (in the short-term reprisal sense) if the AI converts it into a wave of younglings.  It's getting full strength (if you threw 1,000 bombers at it on diff 10, it's going to convert that to something like 1,500 younglings, though the mark-level multipliers probably skew that substantially) but you'll get peanuts in salvage.  On the other hand it could spend it all on bombers, and you'd get back a large chunk of change.  That one point isn't a huge problem, but it's more widely-variable than I'd like.

Another approach, with non-trivial but non-extreme complexity cost, would be to have each AI player remember how much strength of which types it had salvaged.  Then a reprisal-wave would send back the types it could (below diff 10 it wouldn't be sending back the same quantity, but you get the idea), and only do the "melt down and spend on whatever I randomly pick" bit on ships that it can't legally send in waves (because it hadn't unlocked that type or whatever).  That would make triangle casualties give much more consistent results, at least.  And perhaps make high bomber casualties psychologically different for the player.  Thoughts on that approach?
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2014, 11:51:44 pm »
Hmm. I don't really like the "AI remembers what is salvaged" thing as the player doesn't. All we get is a big ol' chunk of metal we can spend however we want. The AI works the same way. I guess the disconnect comes from the fact the AI has an extra conversion step, metal -> "strength". Right now, the metal costs vs strength values across the units have some pretty ugly outliers (though admittedly, not as bad as it used to be before this big change, but still), which can give some surprising results sometimes in both the underwhelming and overwhelming reprisal wave strengths in some corner cases (namely, the AI choosing to invest heavily in such ships with outlier metal/strength ratios).

This might be just a balance work thing; ensuring strength and metal costs do line up mostly (some variety is fine), tweaking the AI metal -> strength conversion "rates", and tweaking the AI and player salvaging efficiencies.

I also like the idea of the AI "ramping up" its efficiency some. It would mirror the player getting increased efficiencies over time (through better command station unlocks). I think 5% as an initial value is too low (considering our home station gets an efficiency of 50%).

Actually, there is an idea. Could the AI's command stations also dictate their scrap effeciency for that planet. There would still be the global AI efficiency (which would be subject difficulty scaling and a potentially be ramped up and all that), but it would give a way to separate AI command station marks other than the marks of ships you tend to see on them. (Though, this sort of thing may be better suited for if the AI ever gets multiple kinds of command stations, though I suppose the sub-commander stuff can tie into this too)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2014, 09:56:10 am »
Hmm. I don't really like the "AI remembers what is salvaged" thing as the player doesn't. All we get is a big ol' chunk of metal we can spend however we want. The AI works the same way.
The two really don't have to be a mirror image.   They certainly aren't in the rest of the game.  Some degree of parallel is helpful for fun-value, and frivolous differences are to be avoided for clarity's sake, but beyond that it's a question of what delivers the most interesting experience.

It'd still be fairly close in that the AI would still be getting something quite proportional to what it salvaged, and I think it would be more entertaining to actually see a good part of what you threw at it come back.
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Offline TheOverWhelming

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2014, 02:49:36 pm »
While I'm casually reading the forum (not too indepthlike) I do enjoy this new mechanic, even with the crap (yet well decided) efficiency for most places.. 69/s, sweet oh wait losing 3000 from inefficiency :(

Just gonna throw an idea out there: cleanup drones
Reference
Currently, it seems their prime purpose is to take care of mines (on high cap i can build 58 of them, jeez) and I have no idea what it refers to when it says enemy ship remains (since they don't interact with scrap).  I've never even seen an 'enemy rebuilder', when I first read about this unit I thought there was some form of PvP i didn't see (which I thought would be kind of cool, even in an AI infested galaxy or lack of)

Assuming I'm right and they have no other purpose I feel like they should handle the salvage (including the AI) with the command station deciding the efficiency
It gives them a bigger purpose and it prevents the AI from taking a large portion of salvage from that 50 seconds you need to absolutely destroy the command station with its 3 layers of shields and 2 ion cannons on the other side of the planet

Also, every wave is reprisal.  The only time there are no reprisal waves (since reprisal are currently "add on ships" mechanic) is when the player loses no ships ever on AI planets.  It should be better communicated to the player how much he additionally screwed himself over from losing all those ships 4 minutes before

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2014, 04:46:57 pm »
Hmm. I don't really like the "AI remembers what is salvaged" thing as the player doesn't. All we get is a big ol' chunk of metal we can spend however we want. The AI works the same way.
The two really don't have to be a mirror image.   They certainly aren't in the rest of the game.  Some degree of parallel is helpful for fun-value, and frivolous differences are to be avoided for clarity's sake, but beyond that it's a question of what delivers the most interesting experience.

It'd still be fairly close in that the AI would still be getting something quite proportional to what it salvaged, and I think it would be more entertaining to actually see a good part of what you threw at it come back.

Personally (and this is just me), I would still prefer the AI just using scrap for whatever it wants rather than having its "hands tied" to rebuilding what was scrapped. Plus, I am of the type that likes symmetry between the two sides in general. ;)

Yea, having it "remember" ship types it got scrap from would make the "feedback" of what happened to the player more obvious, but it also seems really cheesable, and insufficiently punishing for losing certain kinds of ships. Then again, it would make "the AI chose predomantly something that I counter vs/something that counters me" RNG rolls less of an issue, especially in the early game where it can really matter. Then again, that sort of "roll" happens anyways with waves (unless you play with schizo waves), and this is supposed to only trigger if the player is incurring major losses.


Actually, there is an idea. If schizo waves are on, the AI can spread around scrap and spend it on whatever it wants (maybe with a chance of using the other logic, like normal schizo waves have a chance to). If schizo waves are off, then the AI will "remember" what it scrapped.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 04:49:13 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Toranth

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2014, 05:50:00 pm »
Another approach, with non-trivial but non-extreme complexity cost, would be to have each AI player remember how much strength of which types it had salvaged.  Then a reprisal-wave would send back the types it could (below diff 10 it wouldn't be sending back the same quantity, but you get the idea), and only do the "melt down and spend on whatever I randomly pick" bit on ships that it can't legally send in waves (because it hadn't unlocked that type or whatever).  That would make triangle casualties give much more consistent results, at least.  And perhaps make high bomber casualties psychologically different for the player.  Thoughts on that approach?
Assuming Reprisal waves become their own thing, this could be interesting, especially if it preserved the Mark of ships.  It would result in an even strength reprisal, and an equal payoff in salvage (before efficiencies).  I can see TechSY730's point that it would end up being a bit hand-tied, since the human fleet will be based around triangle ships for most of the game. 
Conceptually, it bothers me a little, because it then basically turns all the AIs into a Super Thief or Zombie Master AI - every time you lose a ship, the AI reclaims it.  When distributed randomly into some wave, it just makes the AI generally "stronger".


Also, every wave is reprisal.  The only time there are no reprisal waves (since reprisal are currently "add on ships" mechanic) is when the player loses no ships ever on AI planets.  It should be better communicated to the player how much he additionally screwed himself over from losing all those ships 4 minutes before
QFT.  I've noticed the same thing in my current game, and it makes it a rather hard to predict the wave's strength.  If the Reprisal waves become their own thing, this should be avoided.


I also like the idea of the AI "ramping up" its efficiency some. It would mirror the player getting increased efficiencies over time (through better command station unlocks). I think 5% as an initial value is too low (considering our home station gets an efficiency of 50%).
The reason I was asking for a ramp up period is to prevent every game from turning into "Build all your turrets on the Homeworld before you send our your fleet for the first time, or DIE."  Just losing the basic triangle fleet adds several hundred ships to incoming waves, at a time they are normally measured in low double digits.  Ramping up slowly over a few hours (or as AIP rises?) gives the player the chance to build defenses while also doing other things, before actually starting to stress those defenses.
Another idea would be to limit how much strength the Reprisal could add - limit it to a max of doubling the wave size, for example.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2014, 06:57:31 pm »
Agreed on the UI feedback thing on just how much scrap you left behind for the AI and/or how close the AI is to sending a reprisal wave. It doesn't have to be exact numbers, it could just be a rough "low, medium, high" type thing. But at least some sort of UI feedback.
I'm assuming some sort of UI feedback was planned all along, but you just wanted to get the mechanic out first to see how it works out.

-----

If seeing only waves due to reprisal and not due to normal time-based causes, then that is a sign that the AI, even with its currently quite low effeciency, is still getting too much scrap too fast, or the cutoff for the "reprisal" wave to too low. (I sadly have still not gotten a chance to try out this new version yet. :()

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How about to prevent a "how close am I to hitting the scrap cap" type of fear all game long, how about letting the AI's acculmulated "scrap" decay over time, but in a way that the overall strength isn't lost.

Like, every wave due to a non-scrap cause (normal cause by time, raid engine, etc), the AI will use like 1/4 or 1/3 (rounded up) of their accumulated scrap, even if it was below the cutoff. And maybe for reinforcements, the AI will use 1/10th or 1/12th or something like that (rounded down) of their accumulated scrap for extra reinforcements.

This way, as long as the player doesn't go too crazy too fast, the effects of AI scrap get spread out over time. Only if the player is too reckless too fast in too short a time frame (like a mid to late game fleet wipe, or consistent suicidal aggression) will the whole "scrap" be dumped on you all at once. This makes it less punishing in normal cases (to keep normal losses from adding up too much until a hidden "kill trigger" is hit, so long as you are careful, and if it does, reduce the frequency of the events), but still keeps the motivation for this mechanic in the first place (letting the AI take advantage of major losses from the player)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 09:32:15 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Chthon

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2014, 08:34:47 pm »
If you want a non-exact meter on how much scrap you left behind, it could come in the form of a number still.  Such a meter would tell you how much scrap has been lost in AI territory that has not yet been sent back at you in Reprisal.  It also wouldn't be a precise number, instead it would follow the lines of X and number of 0s representing the number of significant digits.

For example:
1-9 metal scrap, it would read X
10-99 metal scrap it would read X0
100-999 metal scrap it would read X00
1000-9999 metal scrap it would read X,000

Alternately you can simply show a number based on how many significant digits there are:

1-9 metal scrap it would be 1
10-99 metal scrap it would be 2
100-999 metal scrap it would be 3
1000-9999 metal scrap it would be 4

As you can see, the more metal scrap you would lose to the AI, the less accurate the number would become.  It would be up to the player to figure out just how high he can push that number and still hold out at different points in the game, but it would provide him feedback on just how much push will come to shove him.

Edit:  The mathematical formula for the number of significant digits is easy as well.  Int(Log(Enemyscrapnet)+1)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 08:39:58 pm by Chthon »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2014, 08:38:41 pm »
Still thinking about the UI feedback bit.  Possibly a % meter like it gives you for exos: doesn't show up at all until 50%, then tells you how far up the scale you are.

Though the psychological effect bears pondering.  No indicator certainly has an effect.  And it probably wouldn't be a good one.

On the other hand, seeing your "casualty meter" shoot up to 300% (bear in mind it doesn't trigger at 100%, per se, it triggers at 3 minutes after it goes above zero, IF it's at 100% or higher, otherwise it waits 3 more minutes and checks again) could have a pretty profound effect too.

If you're curious in the meantime, turning on F3 and mouseovering the AIP section of the resource bar will show each AI's current AISalvage level, which is the total metal value of what's died there (before the difficulty multiplier is applied).
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Offline Chthon

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2014, 08:49:55 pm »
A % meter wouldn't make that much sense to me honestly.  Percentage of what really?  What is the base 100%?

Instead a meter like I suggested, probably the second one, where it tells you that you have a Level 1 threat, you know it's negligible.  However a level 6 threat you will find to be deadly.  It's like how earthquakes are currently classified, or even storms.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2014, 09:14:29 pm »
True, a threat level would be better :)
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Offline LordSloth

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 09:24:05 am »
For some people, that threat level might need to be on a logarithmic scale. The question is whether a fallen spire fleet wipe is more like a hurricane or an earthquake. I have been keeping my games fairly free of expensive superweapons (but including the thief AI) while shaking off the dust.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2014, 09:26:42 am »
I'd probably go with a numeric threat level (1,2,3,4,etc) rather than a subjective one ("Danger","Extreme","Forest Fire", etc ;) ) and have it be power-of-two rather than order-of-magnitude logarithmic.  So once it reaches enough to make a wave it shows 1, if it gets to double that it shows 2, if it gets to 4x that it shows 3,  8x shows 4, etc.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2014, 10:25:49 am »
rather than a subjective one ("Danger","Extreme","Forest Fire", etc ;) )

"Forest Fire"?  That sounds pretty safe.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thoughts on the salvage mechanic
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2014, 10:38:31 am »
"Forest Fire"?  That sounds pretty safe.
That's actually one of the descriptors it uses to warn you about expected hacking response :)

About the time you see it monkeys start shooting out of your nose.
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