Author Topic: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)  (Read 3150 times)

Offline TheWordWillSetYouFree

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 09:31:07 pm »
I agree with x4000's view that they should cost AI progress when you first get them online, but then after committing them to battle the fact that you have to pay that AI progress again is in my opinion ridiculous. If I build a massive 10k fleet and loose all of it I don't have to rebuild it at an AI cost!
It's depressing that committing something that you are paying a LOT of resources on sustaining is going to make the game harder in the long run!
I know it's powerful and a major unit, but so if a massive fleet! I don't see why a single unit should be burdened with the AI cost when a fleet isn't.

Golem => Massive resource drain -- powerful -- AI cost.
Fleet => Massive resource drain -- powerful -- no AI cost.

For me there is a massive win in one of those options and a lot of people that I have talked to agree.

There is simply no advantage in getting a golem, ever.

EDIT: At shipcap, putting resources into mercenary ships is better! Thats saying a lot.......
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 09:35:02 pm by TheWordWillSetYouFree »

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 10:28:29 pm »
Players have repeatedly demonstrated how wonderfully adept they are at abusing things that are large that can be repaired.  When something has a ton of health, it is easy to never let it die because you have lots of warning.  When being down to 10% health is still several million health, that's an issue.  The player just retreats it, and then builds back up this superweapon... "for free" if they have a resource surplus.

From your viewpoint, we go from "there is simply no advantage in getting a golem, ever" to a situation where one golem equals, essentially, a doubled fleet cap.  Think about it: if one golem is equal to your entire fleet, and can be repaired in the same manner as your fleet, then having a golem AND your fleet is a double fleet.  That's game-breaking right there.

But... brainwave... your comment about mercenaries is interesting.  If the resource costs of golems were waaay higher... hmm.  Possibly if using a golem cost you 10x or more what it would cost you to maintain the entire rest of your fleet, that could work.  The repair speed on them would also have to be really slow, so that they could only be used at full strength once every few hours.  But then there could be a one-time initial AIP cost for reactivation, the existing high energy cost, and so forth.  Golem costs could be adjusted to match their "fleet equivalency" in terms of their usefulness.  So, some golems might be cheaper, as they are less useful, and others might be vastly more costly.

That would still make golems terribly expensive and inconvenient to use in the normal course of things, but it would make it so that people might actually use them.  Hmmm, very interesting.  That might actually be the solution I'd been looking for.  Let me play with the numbers on them, and I'll see what that looks like.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 11:09:17 pm »
Okay, so new version out with major golem changes: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,4643.msg31566.html#msg31566

If golems turn out to be too cheap, they'll have to become more expensive.  But, they now have no AIP cost beyond the initial repair of the broken golem (amongst a number of other balance changes).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Doddler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
Re: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2010, 11:23:37 pm »
I initially suggested the inability to repair golems to get around the restrictions x4000 mentions.  A golem in its current incarnation can be used to wreck a whole bunch of stuff, and then brought back and then rebuilt into working order.  With enough time and resources the golem can do all the work for you, or at least simplify your job considerably.  In order to counteract this unlimited use of a super weapon, the golem costs AI progress to repair.  

I think though that if you could not repair a golem after active, the landscape changes.  You know what the golem is capable of.  The offensive golems can destroy ships equal to their max health.  Regenerator can resurrect a certain health worth of ships.  Black Widow will eventually fall to the flies it catches.  Cursed wouldn't be that different but it's hard enough to use effectively anyways.  The golems become incredibly powerful tools, but there power is finite, the golem will eventually break, you can't stop it from happening.  Well, I think its easier to balance the golems knowing that if a player gets one he cannot use it indefinately.

Paying AI progress just isn't my style, which is why I kind of hope there would potentially be alternate 'costs' for using a golem without directly costing AI progress, or at least not much.  You could, for example, have the AI continually send waves against the golem (raid engine style).  These extra waves would be aimed directly at the system the golem is on, or the closest system to the golem.  The player gains the power of the golem, but suffer the risk of holding one.  The golems are a limited resource, if the golem dies, the game goes on, balance is restored.

Anyways, they're just kind of interesting ideas.

Edit: Oooh, official golem changes.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2010, 11:55:51 pm »
In the end, I figure if the time/resource cost is high enough, you would have to be a fanatic to really abuse the golem. This way they have more than one use in hem, by a longshot, but they will cost you a to. Of resources and won't be some you can just repeatedly and continuously repair unpess you are just so rich that you should have won several times over already.

Or, that is the new goal. The costs might not be in perfect balance, but they are a start. Thanks to all for all the ideas! And I am sure everyone expertise and thoughts will be needed to help get all of these into complete balance, but at least there has now been a premise shift that hopefully everyone can get behind. We shall see!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Trezamere

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 11:31:30 pm »
Any change that doesn't involve constant AIP is a positive change in my book, can't wait to try it out :D.

And some more idea's if the current incarnation doesn't prove to be enough or whatever; to follow the line of thought that it should be very difficult to capture a golem to balance out their power, in addition to only having them be in MKIV sectors you could also spawn raid engines with them (or just have a mechanic from the broken golems themselves that acts like a raid engine or super terminal until they're repaired) that make it a really tough fight to actually capture them.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 11:35:29 pm by Trezamere »

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2010, 12:24:56 pm »
Regenerator can resurrect a certain health worth of ships.

Do you really want to pay AI Progress in order to have your fleet rebuilt?

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Thoughts on Golems (Rant of Sorts)
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2010, 12:25:31 pm »
Regenerator can resurrect a certain health worth of ships.

Do you really want to pay AI Progress in order to have your fleet rebuilt?

Please see latest versions.  That is no longer the case.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!