Author Topic: This AI is awesome.  (Read 102732 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2010, 09:42:28 AM »
Yes, but the AI doesn't specifically choose a weak spot. Instead, the AI likes to randomly choose to pick every spot, over a long enough time period. A weak spot is not intentionally exploited by the AI, it's simply eventually hit. A good player wouldn't always bash a good amount of units over your time-and-tried proven strong spots. AI does.
Yea, at one point Chris actually gave it some degree of memory of "this wormhole has been really bad for me in the past" to encourage use of other paths to the player, but that was removed, iirc due to the "gap in the wall" problem emerging.

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This never happened. The enemy will 100% of the time send a wave directly into your system, before sending them across an empty sector to hit you.
Ah, yes, it will always do that *for waves* if you own a planet adjacent to a warp gate.  If you actually destroy all the warp gates adjacent to planets owned by you, it will spawn them at some random nearby warp gate (without warning of which planet) and move them via normal drive into your territory.  This is generally actually much harder to defend than just leaving one warp gate.

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Point of all this, even this AI can be forced through a "Hole in the wall" rather than the actual weak spot.
Yes, that is an intentional aspect of the warp gate mechanic.  There's a lot of strategy in reducing your external graph edges and picking which warp gates to leave alive. 

I suppose we could have an AI modifier that would basically have it always warp the ships to a nearby warpgate and move normally, which would be pretty similar to the proposed "only CPAs" option.  That would be a fairly different game experience, but that may be more what you (and some others) would prefer, at least for some games.

By the way, have you run into a Cross Planet Attack yet?  That's where the AI rounds up a bunch of already-existing ships (often in the 1000s) and just throws them at you through whatever path(s) it feels like at the time.  It's ended more than one seemingly-going-well game ;)
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Offline Rod Serling

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2010, 09:53:44 AM »
Ah, yes, it will always do that *for waves* if you own a planet adjacent to a warp gate.  If you actually destroy all the warp gates adjacent to planets owned by you, it will spawn them at some random nearby warp gate (without warning of which planet) and move them via normal drive into your territory.  This is generally actually much harder to defend than just leaving one warp gate.

Actually, I think it might be a good idea to allow a mix of these in through neutral territory. Allow the AI to attack in waves both directly against a planet, and through a possibly limited number of "Neutral" territories. It's a suggestion at least.

http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,4345.new.html

By the way, have you run into a Cross Planet Attack yet?  That's where the AI rounds up a bunch of already-existing ships (often in the 1000s) and just throws them at you through whatever path(s) it feels like at the time.  It's ended more than one seemingly-going-well game ;)

You probably missed the edit, but yes, I got hit by a CPA eventually, and it threw quite a few ships at my "Weak Spot". Thankfully, my "Weak Spot" was strong enough to hold them off... with some fleet support ;]

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2010, 10:59:20 AM »
Well, I think you may be surprised at how painful these are, but I think they're valid as alternate game modes, and could provide some excitement, to say the least.

For 3.084:

-Added new AI modifier: No Wave Warnings, which simply causes the normal wave timers to not be shown.  The total number of ships in incoming waves is still shown.  This can greatly increase the challenge of the game and should be used with caution.

-Added new AI modifier: Cross Planet Waves, which causes all AI waves to spawn on an AI planet and travel across normal space rather than spawning at one of your wormholes.  This is the logic normally used when there are no warp gates adjacent to a human-controlled planet.  This can greatly increase the challenge of the game and should be used with caution.
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Offline drum

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2010, 12:15:45 PM »
Hi!

i have to agree that the ai is 'awesome' to play against, even though I've only been playing the full game a couple of weeks and am basically crap at it, it is great fun! also, these forums are amazing, i've played a few games that claim to have ongoing player driven development but rarely is it anything less than a dev team playing dictators, thats certainly not the case here :)

that said, it strikes me as a bit strange that on one hand the ai is ruthless and unpredicable, but on the other it makes no effort to retake lost planets... does anyone else think this? it just seems like they are just waiting to be pummelled into nothing.. maybe I'm not playing on high enough difficulty or something.

maybe if the ai was to occasionally build some kind of colony ship that they can use to re-establish control over an unclaimed system it would add a new dimension to gameplay.

anyway thanks for making a great game, and for being so open to input.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2010, 01:48:32 PM »
i've played a few games that claim to have ongoing player driven development but rarely is it anything less than a dev team playing dictators, thats certainly not the case here :)
Oh, Chris is the dictator, he's just very benevolent ;)  He's also set up the code &etc such that it is very easy to modify; it's also much easier as C# rather than a language requiring explicit memory management (like C++).

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that said, it strikes me as a bit strange that on one hand the ai is ruthless and unpredicable, but on the other it makes no effort to retake lost planets... does anyone else think this? it just seems like they are just waiting to be pummelled into nothing.. maybe I'm not playing on high enough difficulty or something.

maybe if the ai was to occasionally build some kind of colony ship that they can use to re-establish control over an unclaimed system it would add a new dimension to gameplay.
It does seem that thematically speaking it would reclaim systems.  The problem is that there is a permanent cost to the human player (in the form of AI progress) for "clearing" an AI system, and having the potential to need to reclaim a system could be difficult to balance with that cost.

But it would be possible to add a mechanic by which the AI could reclaim a planet; perhaps through a mining-golem-like situation.  It would need to be fairly rare and give plenty of warning to the player so they would have a chance to defend their 20 AIP "investment".
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Offline drum

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2010, 03:10:27 PM »
It would need to be fairly rare and give plenty of warning to the player so they would have a chance to defend their 20 AIP "investment".

oh yes for sure.. i think a combination of difficulty level, ai progress, ai type and planets lost would increase the chance of it, and there would need to be i think a series of warning signs that can be picked up on by scouts etc before getting a formal warning that a planet is going to be retaken....

maybe it would play out like this:

ai progress and planet losses reaches the point that the ai starts to build their 'colony ship' at their core. if you have a scout at that core, you would recieve an alert, and if you're brave enough you can send a raid to take it out. if you dont want to raid the next option is to wait for the colony ship to start its journey and assault it at a less well defended place.

once the colony ship is complete the ai will start reinforcing the planet they wish to colonise, not only could you notice this if you have left a scout in the right place, but there could be a chance that some of those reinforcements decide to go out into your space and cause a little trouble- you might think its just the usual spec forces or whatever, or you may decide to take a look at where they came from.

of course the ai colony ship would travel very slowly, allowing a large force to build up to defend it on its arrival- maybe it even has an escort that forms a defensive barrier, meaning that whilst a core raid to destroy it is risky, there is a certain increased difficulty when taking it out en route

once at the target planet, thats when you would get a formal warning and countdown so you would need to move fast(er) depending on the difficulty level to take it out.

it would need a timer so the ai doesnt spam i expect, and of course an option to not have it at all when i find out its too hard for me hahaha

plenty of opportunity to stop the ai retaking a system, thus protecting your aip investment, but also a big punishing stick for not paying attention to your enemy!


aaaaand, Chris is a dictator? oh dear, he must be waiting till he has enough followers to start the oppression, run for the hills everyone!!

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2010, 05:18:40 AM »
Grr, just got schooled by the AI again. I was playing a No Wave Announcement/CPA Wave type of game against two lvl 7s. One Grav Driller and one Special Forces captain. I was defending my starting system pretty well and was just building up a proper fleet and hit the neighboring Mk I system for some resources (really no interesting systems nearby, except for this 4/4).

As I was mopping up that system (which of course had a grav drill), I get hit with occasional waves through the wormholes. Nothing I can't handle. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, the "Command Station is under attack" sound. What the? I then see it's my HOME Command station.

You'd think I'd notice if a giant fleet came into my homesystem, mangled all my turrets, tractors, spider turrets and my force field no? Well see the AI didn't like my defences, so he figured my defences lacked in one area: Tachyons. I looked back at my planet only to see the last 3% of my Home station trickle away to a fleet of 50+ Eyebots.

Important lesson learned :(
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Offline SmileyFace

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2010, 07:41:12 AM »
Ouch... I've almost had that happen. Thought I had a great home system defence, then suddenly clouds of ships were decloaking at my home station! That sure taught me the importance of tachyons and gathering enemy intel, too!

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2010, 04:57:11 AM »
Surprised my story hasn't been posted yet.  Some time ago (week, maybe two), Moonshine Fox and I were playing against lvl 7 AIs I believe.  (He would know, I was a complete newb having been my first real AI War game then).  We were doing fine against the AI, actually, too good really.  We had setup an optimal defense but had made an interesting tactical decision to conquer an entire constellation of planets just north of our bases.  The AI soon fell apart.  This gave us an incredibly nice setup of energy and materials, despite a mining Golem shooting at a Mark 3/4 homework right in the middle of the whole dang show.  Since I was in no condition to send a fleet (AI had really hurt me), Fox decided to commit a 1200 ship fleet to destroying that thing before it blew up the planet.  We knew the AI progress would be too great.  However, here is the trick of the whole matter.  One of the AIs had a turn on for using Black Hole Machines.  (The ones that stop you from using wormholes once you enter, name escapes me).  So unless we were willing to siege about 6 systems, it would be a suicide fleet.  Using some craft and dangerous maneuverer which blew my mind a bit, Fox had managed to get about 85% of the fleet there with his Zenith Bombardment Ships intact.  Only slight problem is that the mining Golem was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out there.  So it took forever for his fleet to get into range.  It was soon destroyed.  Then the AI decided to dick with us at just that moment and send a wide spread planet attack of about a thousand ships.  I was able to deal with them.  

I then decided that the online Zenith Power Generator needed a use.  I just happened to control a system with a Broken Black Widow Golem.  Greedily, of course, I built it.  This was soon a mistake amongst other things.  

We then found the Dyson homeworld.  And Fox decided that it was the greatest idea to liberate them from the evil tyranny of the mighty AI.  (How the AI was controlling them with a single command station is a little beyond me  ;D)  Using a basically sucide run of Raid Starships, we blew up said command center.  Then, the worst happened.  It just so happened that the AI had a Mark 4 Raid engine on a nearby planet.  Whoop whoop went the sounds of our doom.  We then tried to nuke the planet.  

Worst.   Plan.   Ever.  

Not only was the AI really pissed off, it sends 1000+ Core ships to destroy us.  Idk how many assaulted our fleet outside the world that was nuked, but it was enough to destroy both our fleets including the Golem, Spire and Zenith starships, dreads, Mark 4 ships and etc.  The dysons were of little help and seemed to mock us as system after system fell to the rage of the horde.  To say that we were screwed, would be accurate.  We had no way to rebuild the fleet in time to counter a 1000 Core fleet.  It took system after system.  We just watched, horrified as all our hard work went to tiny bits.  

So yeah.  We learned a very, very important lesson(s):

Don't piss the AI off.  It hurts.  

I've had a lot of fun with AI War, best fun with an RTS ever.  Sadly, this AI is going to spoil me on any other AI these "intelligent big boy company Devs" will ever come up with.  :(  But then again, why need another game eh eh?  Thanks for the fun now and in the future!


(Oh and yeah, was a bit bored and wanted to write something, this is the fruit of said writing).  
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 05:01:09 AM by kingisaaclinksr »
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Offline superking

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2010, 06:28:07 AM »
awesome story  :)

it does seem like your reason for taking down the mining golem- saving AIP- might be somewhat undone by repairing the golem (that was probably also responsible for such a huge counterattack with its wave multiplier) and nuking a planet

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2010, 08:49:49 AM »
awesome story  :)

it does seem like your reason for taking down the mining golem- saving AIP- might be somewhat undone by repairing the golem (that was probably also responsible for such a huge counterattack with its wave multiplier) and nuking a planet
Taking down the Mining Golem was at a vital point where we were trying to conserve AIP, the liberation of the Dyson sphere was simply because it was only two jumps from one of the AI homeworlds, thus able to assist us massively in the siege of that planet. Only problem was that none of us had unlocked higher level scouts, and we (I) forgot to scout the Mark IV next to the Dyson planet. I figured the Dysons could easily handle everything the Mark IV would throw at them. Problem was it had a Raid Engine. It kept hammering the Dyson system with massive Mark IV mixed waves and we were starting to take a beating. We tried to attack the Mark IV to take the Raid Engine out and failed miserably several times.

This is where we started to get desperate. The Raid Engine planet was permanently on alert due to the liberated Dyson system next door, and it was both reinforcing heavily in addition to sending us difficult waves. In order to have any chance of attacking the Core World behind the Mark IV, we needed that Raid Engine dead. Hence the nuke plan (after all, we were going to hit a homeworld short after). However, after nuking the Mark IV, the AI launched a CPA that almost took us out, in addition to sending a massive fleet of Core ships our way. We now stood with no strength to follow up the nuked world, and a homeworld on alert.

We had no way to win there (high AIP progress just made things worse). We slammed our heads on the fortress that was the homeworld, but we eventually gave up. It was a REALLY good game, but lack of scouting really lost it for us. Good lesson, if nothing else ;)
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Offline danando

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2010, 12:57:05 PM »
i must say, the AI is one of the best i have seen  :) mayb 1st place in my AI quality :D:D:D they split there forces up into 4 divisions and flanked me haha
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 12:42:54 PM by danando »

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Offline Goekhan

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2010, 04:28:05 AM »
Just wanted to pop in and express my opinion, not only is you're AI great but I honestly wish more developers from other companies would show the same devotion you guys at Arcen show here on the boards by being responsive, and actually listening to your fan base. Keep up the good work!

~Kryzite

Yeah, I wish the same. There are several companies that I like.

DICE: For "still" supporting games on PC very much even though they are console ports...
Bioware & Obsidian Entertainment: For keeping RPGs alive, and shooing & shoving console gamers aside (mostly)...
Hi-Rez: For doing a remarkable job with Global Agenda...

Arcen: For blending in with the community & taking their suggestions into consideration, non-stop work, free DLCs (every new ship, turret etc means DLC in my vocabulary, as some companies know how to add 3-5 things (maps, "cough"MW2"cough") and charge 10-15 bucks for a pile of bullshit)

And ALL other indie developers: For having balls to try new things, instead of making same type of games over and over and over (EA killed many titles, remember. it's unusual, it's different, it's a new thing - this means possible money loss to many publishers)

Offline Thumpy

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2010, 04:34:32 PM »
hello! first post but been reading for a while. have downloaded ai war from steam two weeks ago. not sure where to put this, but this thread seems the most appropriate. i love this game. i LOVE this game. and this is down primarily to the AI. it's nothing short but amazing. you realize it's good when you stop thinking about it as an AI and instead get immersed into fighting a brilliant opponent. can't really explain this, i know nothing bout programming, i just know it's the most fun i ever had in strategy games. overall the game design is so inventive and corrects most of the flaws i have with other games of this type. this game  is probably the most amazing achievement in real time strategy to date. and now i think about it, first when i installed the demo, i was just about to uninstall it, too many aspects initially didn't appeal to me, but now even those aspects are vital to the greatness of this game. it's not a casual game, but it's the most rewarding experience when you spend time with it.

ok, sorry.. that was enough praise. but i just wanted to thank everyone involved for two weeks of brilliant fun playing this game. and hopefully many more to come :)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: This AI is awesome.
« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2010, 04:35:31 PM »
Glad you're enjoying it, welcome to the forums :)
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