Author Topic: Thinking about blobbing  (Read 17895 times)

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2012, 11:47:49 am »
Bombers used to be way slower than fighters but were buffed up to the same speed specifically so they were easier to use together.
That's what the group move is for ;)
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2012, 11:48:06 am »
Bombers used to be way slower than fighters but were buffed up to the same speed specifically so they were easier to use together.
No kidding, isn't the point of group move to keep your stuff together?

Homogenizing the fleet ships because some players are lazy doesn't seem like the best design decision. Fighters would be much better at doing their actual job of countering bombers if they were significantly faster. Bombers would be much less overpowered if they took a speed nerf. On both accounts it makes the game more realistic and intuitive and discourages blobbing.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2012, 11:49:21 am »
Bomber/Fighters are speed 76, Missile Frigates 44.  I could see Bombers getting bumped down to 68 (about a 10% decrease), or Fighters up to 84.

Or bombers could go to 72, fighters to 80, sort of giving a "best" of both worlds.

In any case, these sorts of speed differences are the magnitudes of differences I wouldn't mind having. Enough to make the fighters' usefulness a bit more obvious, but not enough to make fleet management annoying.


EDIT: In the light of group move (and several bugfixes with group move making group move practical nowadays), I wouldn't mind seeing a more severe speed difference, like bomber to 68 AND fighter to 84 or something.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2012, 11:53:15 am »
Bombers used to be way slower than fighters but were buffed up to the same speed specifically so they were easier to use together.
That's what the group move is for ;)
Bombers used to be way slower than fighters.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2012, 11:59:20 am »
Bombers used to be way slower than fighters but were buffed up to the same speed specifically so they were easier to use together.
That's what the group move is for ;)
Bombers used to be way slower than fighters.

Yes, that sort of speed difference was annoying, and I am not in favor of going back to that.

But I wouldn't mind somewhat to moderately slower.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2012, 11:59:52 am »
I remember when bombers used to move the speed of frigates.

Then you buffed their speed, but the result was that frigates were then just ignored in fleet blobs, so then they got cheaper.

Since frigates are already so slow, I don't see why bombers can't have a middle ground between the two (frigates and fighters). If you group move with any frigates you move like molasses anyway.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2012, 12:04:21 pm »
Since frigates are already so slow, I don't see why bombers can't have a middle ground between the two (frigates and fighters). If you group move with any frigates you move like molasses anyway.

And that is why I use TRANSPORTS EVERYWHERE.

(Have I mentioned lately that it was mine and Ruke's tactics that caused the "30% damage on enemy wormhole transit" nerf?)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2012, 12:06:54 pm »
I remember when bombers used to move the speed of frigates.

Then you buffed their speed, but the result was that frigates were then just ignored in fleet blobs, so then they got cheaper.

Since frigates are already so slow, I don't see why bombers can't have a middle ground between the two (frigates and fighters). If you group move with any frigates you move like molasses anyway.
I agree that Bombers should be at the halfway point between Frigates and Fighters.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2012, 12:07:55 pm »
Part of the problem with blobbings is homogenization.

What help causes homogenization?

The research tree.

It almost always more efficient to have a mixed fleet then to specialize in a certain craft. This comes with many benefits*. The draw back is that the player fleet has few weaknesses and the best tactic with the homogenous fleet is to keep them together so they can cover each others weaknesses.

*refering to game design. In effect, it just makes the player stronger.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2012, 12:11:41 pm »
Part of the problem with blobbings is homogenization.

What help causes homogenization?

The research tree.

It almost always more efficient to have a mixed fleet then to specialize in a certain craft. This comes with many benefits. The draw back is that the player fleet has few weaknesses and the best tactic with the homogenous fleet is to keep them together so they can cover each others weaknesses.

This is sort thing is in part because Mk. III and up, generally speaking, have a poor return for their utility per knowledge. This is for both military and support unlocks. From what I understand, this was an intentional design decision, as part of the whole emphasis on variety thing.
Now one could argue that the currently cost structure situation may take things a bit too far, and not rewarding specialization enough.
TBH, I am personally not sure.
EDIT2: In general though, having a "mixed" attack force is just good practice, for the reasons mentioned above. Rewarding specialization wouldn't change that. Shame that the default AI settings have the AI send single type waves, and the AI's fleet management skills aren't quite good enough to really use the power of mixed unit type waves if you do turn them on.

EDIT: Another big reason for this is that each individual fleet ship unit is so cheap, and ship caps are high, thus making it trivial to mix ship types. But that is sort of a staple of AI War ever since the beginning.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:17:23 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2012, 12:18:16 pm »
Lowering bomber speed does seem like a good idea, though in general I think the game is more tactical with lower speeds all around.  But there's already an Epic combat style so I refrain from applying that thought in large scale ;)
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2012, 12:25:58 pm »
As for the high lethality suggestion for the fighter, please don't. Frigates are still very numerous and common and microing your fighters away from them will be hell because there's going to be 2-3 frigs coming from every direction. Back in a late 3.x version frigates were highly vulnerable to lightning (took like two shots to kill) and any stray elec shuttle would destroy a large chunk of your army. That's not fun, you had to manually intercept all the damn shuttles (or just stop using frigates and bring some bonus ship for fire support instead). Doing the same with frigs vs fighters would be just as awful.

One rule I could imagine is something like a maximum attacker count where small fleetships can't be targeted by more than X enemies simultaneously (let's just say their targeting radars interfere with each other beyond that point or they find it hard to get a clear line of fire), of course with preference going to the ships with the highest DPS against the target. That way sending a blob will not significantly increase your firepower. In other RTSes that mechanic comes naturally because units occupy physical space so only a certain number of units can fit into range at the same time but in AI war you could compress 1000 units into a singularity. Of course then there's still no real risk to massing your forces.

E.g. in Kernel Panic the Bugs are specifically balanced to be weaker in large numbers because they need a clear line of fire to their target and the back ranks couldn't fire (the other factor was that they could convert to highly vulnerable artillery guns that allowed additional bugs to add firepower, a combined force of mobile bugs and artillery could beat an equally sized force of any other faction) while the roughly equivalent Bit worked better in blobs as it didn't need a clear line of fire.

Or if you want a more forced variant make using too large a force free units on adjacent planets (perhaps even with a safety control option that stops ships at the wormhole if the planet behind it is at the limit for triggering a counterattack, that way players won't accidentally ruin their game), story-wise the humans have to keep a low profile and fielding an 800 ship army against a small planet isn't keeping a low profile. When you have a budget you start considering what you send much more than when sending fewer units is merely a minor bonus.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2012, 12:31:06 pm »
Part of the problem with blobbings is homogenization.

What help causes homogenization?

The research tree.

It almost always more efficient to have a mixed fleet then to specialize in a certain craft. This comes with many benefits. The draw back is that the player fleet has few weaknesses and the best tactic with the homogenous fleet is to keep them together so they can cover each others weaknesses.

This is sort thing is in part because Mk. III and up, generally speaking, have a poor return for their utility per knowledge. This is for both military and support unlocks. From what I understand, this was an intentional design decision, as part of the whole emphasis on variety thing.
Now one could argue that the currently cost structure situation may take things a bit too far, and not rewarding specialization enough.
TBH, I am personally not sure.
EDIT2: In general though, having a "mixed" attack force is just good practice, for the reasons mentioned above. Rewarding specialization wouldn't change that. Shame that the default AI settings have the AI send single type waves, and the AI's fleet management skills aren't quite good enough to really use the power of mixed unit type waves if you do turn them on.

EDIT: Another big reason for this is that each individual fleet ship unit is so cheap, and ship caps are high, thus making it trivial to mix ship types. But that is sort of a staple of AI War ever since the beginning.

The problem is that tactically you generally want a mixed fleet to begin with as long as the different triangle ships are even remotely balanced. Otherwise it wouldn't be a "triangle" to begin with.

In terms of resources, anything about II gets some really inefficient gains.The K cost just makes it worst.

It seems too skewed the other way. It is tactically a good idea to spread your resources. Why, with the resource cost so high, does the k cost have to be so high as well?

I understand the desire to not make the game "samey". But, when homogenous fleets are the way to go, the game gets samey nonetheless, except with the different flavors of specializing in certain units, you get the fleet blobs we get today. Which, ironically, is about as samey you can get.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:34:42 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2012, 12:44:32 pm »
The problem is that tactically you generally want a mixed fleet to begin with as long as the different triangle ships are even remotely balanced. Otherwise it wouldn't be a "triangle" to begin with.

In terms of resources, anything about II gets some really inefficient gains.The K cost just makes it worst.

It seems too skewed the other way. It is tactically a good idea to spread your resources. Why, with the resource cost so high, does the k cost have to be so high as well?

I understand the desire to not make the game "samey". But, when homogenous fleets are the way to go, the game gets samey nonetheless, except with the different flavors of specializing in certain units, you get the fleet blobs we get today. Which, ironically, is about as samey you can get.

Right now, you get diminishing returns on ships Mk. III and up with both utility per resource cost AND utility per knowledge cost.
Are you saying that, even though one xor the other is fine, having both just seems unfair and trying to push "variety" too far to the detriment of the game?

Anyways, your point in that trying to enforce variety too much will actually lead to a different "sameyness" is very interesting.

One rule I could imagine is something like a maximum attacker count where small fleetships can't be targeted by more than X enemies simultaneously (let's just say their targeting radars interfere with each other beyond that point or they find it hard to get a clear line of fire), of course with preference going to the ships with the highest DPS against the target. That way sending a blob will not significantly increase your firepower. In other RTSes that mechanic comes naturally because units occupy physical space so only a certain number of units can fit into range at the same time but in AI war you could compress 1000 units into a singularity. Of course then there's still no real risk to massing your forces.

E.g. in Kernel Panic the Bugs are specifically balanced to be weaker in large numbers because they need a clear line of fire to their target and the back ranks couldn't fire (the other factor was that they could convert to highly vulnerable artillery guns that allowed additional bugs to add firepower, a combined force of mobile bugs and artillery could beat an equally sized force of any other faction) while the roughly equivalent Bit worked better in blobs as it didn't need a clear line of fire.

I assume you meant "One rule I could imagine is something like a maximum attacker count where small fleetships can't target the same object by more than X of them at once simultaneously (let's just say their targeting radars interfere with each other beyond that point or they find it hard to get a clear line of fire)"?

This is actually a point I haven't considered. The fact the spacial considerations are "soft" in this game. Where the game does try to keep ships separate, but often times leads to cases units can bunch up together for free for long periods of time, thus letting every ship get optimal firing range.

The reason for this is largely because of performance. Collision "avoidance" by pushing overlapping ships around is expensive, and with the thousands of ships that can be near each other, enforcing this strictly would hurt frame rate way too much. Thus, the game sort of "paces" itself, which can lead to "overlapping stacks" of units lasting for a long time, skewing positional and physical size balance. This is one of those cases where gameplay considerations had to be downplayed somewhat for the sake of performance (and another reason to avoid high ship caps BTW).

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Thinking about blobbing
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2012, 01:03:14 pm »
Quote
As for the high lethality suggestion for the fighter, please don't. Frigates are still very numerous and common and microing your fighters away from them will be hell because there's going to be 2-3 frigs coming from every direction. Back in a late 3.x version frigates were highly vulnerable to lightning (took like two shots to kill) and any stray elec shuttle would destroy a large chunk of your army. That's not fun, you had to manually intercept all the damn shuttles (or just stop using frigates and bring some bonus ship for fire support instead). Doing the same with frigs vs fighters would be just as awful.
Your argument seems to be:  Don't buff the lethality of Fighters because Frigates kill them too easily?

I don't understand.  Isn't that an argument FOR buffing Fighters?

That's like saying don't increase the speed limit on the highway, cops will have to pull people over.  How has that changed anything?

I haven't seen anybody suggesting an upgrade to the lethality of the Frigates in this thread, short of an entire rework of the Triangle.  Most people just think the Fighter needs a buff period - not a Frigate buff to compensate.
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