Author Topic: Things that Tidalis has that AI War Does Not (Yet) -- Updated 5/26/2010  (Read 44101 times)

Offline x4000

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Looks like the very first bits of Unity 3.0 beta are now shipping: http://blogs.unity3d.com/2010/06/23/the-first-unity-3-0-pre-purchase-betas-are-now-shipping/

And the even better news is that the full 3.0 version will be out in a month or so.  That won't help Tidalis, at least not at initial launch, but it will be great for AI War 4.0. :)

I imagine we'll have our beta copy in a week or two, we weren't nearly in the first 100 to buy unity 3.0, but we did buy it a few months back.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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That's a big relief for AI War 4.0, yea.  I wasn't looking forward to going from the VS debugger to no debugger at all; hopefully the Unity 3 one will give me the basics :)
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Offline x4000

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Indeed!  And the font stuff is a big relief for me with AI War, too.
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rubikscube

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so what do you think, of course not close to the launch of 2.0 but do you think 4.0 will bring in as much players as 3.0?

Offline x4000

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It depends on how you define that, really.  We're doing the CON expansion, and the port to Unity, and that's about it -- a few other tiny features as we go, but we'll have our hands full with just that.  Personally, I think that OSX support and better Linux support and better windowing (and possibly performance, etc) are a huge deal.  But it's not a groundbreaking raft of in-game features like 3.0 saw.  But if you look at the list of stuff between 3.0 and 4.0, we've already surpassed that anyway, in my opinion.
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Offline Dragon

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I have a couple of questions about this whole thingy....  First of all

Quote
Simulation-independent framerate:  Right now when AI War starts getting slow in a big battle, the game speed actually drops significantly.  In Unity, the first thing to drop will be the framerate.  So things will get jerky in a big battle, but the game speed won't drop unless things REALLY get bad.  This has a ton of benefits, and will let you get through that moment of lag (when one happens) much faster and more painlessly.

Is that going to help with my Quad core 2.3ghz chugging about 10 hours into an 80 planet two player game, when no combat is going on, and I'm looking at the Galaxy map, or empty systems?  Or is that purely a visual graphics speed adjustment?  Because my graphics card can handle everything AI Wars has thrown at it fine so far.

Quote
Linux Support:  AI War currently does not work in WINE.  But, we have reports that Tidalis does, even though Unity is not officially supported on that platform.

If it does end up running on Linux, will you officially support it, and create Linux installers, etc?  Because games & laziness are pretty much the only reasons why I haven't switched to Linux, so knowing that AI Wars was fully supported would be cool.  Plus I have some friends that might be interested if it ran on Linux, but otherwise aren't interested.

Quote
Faux-Fullscreen Support:  Right now, AI War usually looks fullscreen but it's really actually just a window.  That makes for fast window switching, etc.  That actually isn't possible with Unity, but if you look at Tidalis you can see what is possible: the windowed mode support is really good, and the true fullscreen support has a number of other benefits.  I will miss the support for this, but the other benefits vastly outweigh this drawback.  To clarify: you'll still be able to run in windowed mode at whatever resolution, so you can use it to fill your screen if you want.  But, you'll have a thin little toolbar across the top, and those little window border edges along the sides.

This makes me very sad, as I find that is the best way to play a game.  Speaking as someone with dual screens, having the game on one screen, and chat windows, skype, and firefox on the other screen is pretty much how I play.  Although, I suppose I could dig out the little eve window grabber and use that to move the window.  But having it native would be cool.  Maybe you could check out the window grabber program and put in code like that into AI War it's self.  Or something....  Personally, the only reason at all to not play in Faux-Fullscreen would be if it was fully dual screen supported, like Supreme Commander.  Every other game I play if windowed....  *shrug* I suppose it's not a big loss, but it's something to whine about, and let you know that it will be missed, etc.   :P



Offline keith.lamothe

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Is that going to help with my Quad core 2.3ghz chugging about 10 hours into an 80 planet two player game, when no combat is going on, and I'm looking at the Galaxy map, or empty systems?
What version are you running?  We've done a lot of performance improvements lately.  Also, are you playing with special forces captain AIs?  If you could post your save (probably in a different thread) I could take a look at it during the work on CON/4.0 and run it through a profiler and see if it's anything we can fix.  Also, fwiw, it's only making significant use of 2 of your 4 cores, since there's a sim thread an an AI thread (and only a sim thread if you're non-host in a multiplayer-game); neither can be effectively split any further without losing more than is gained.

But to your question I don't think this particular facet of Unity will greatly aid your performance, though Chris would know better.

On Faux-fullscreen, yea, it's something we wish we could keep, but it's just a significant weight (with a group of maybe 5 others) on a scale with Alaska on the other side, in a lot of ways.
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Offline x4000

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Mostly Keith handled the questions there, but to the ones not addressed:

I have a couple of questions about this whole thingy....  First of all

Quote
Simulation-independent framerate:  Right now when AI War starts getting slow in a big battle, the game speed actually drops significantly.  In Unity, the first thing to drop will be the framerate.  So things will get jerky in a big battle, but the game speed won't drop unless things REALLY get bad.  This has a ton of benefits, and will let you get through that moment of lag (when one happens) much faster and more painlessly.

Is that going to help with my Quad core 2.3ghz chugging about 10 hours into an 80 planet two player game, when no combat is going on, and I'm looking at the Galaxy map, or empty systems?  Or is that purely a visual graphics speed adjustment?  Because my graphics card can handle everything AI Wars has thrown at it fine so far.

As Keith noted, this isn't liked to help with simulation-related performance (although, having a profiler like the one in Unity we expect to really help us to improve simulation performance over time -- but that won't be an immediate or a guaranteed thing, we'll just have to see what it tells us).  But, like he noted, if you're not on the latest betas there's a good chance your slowdown problems are already fixed in that beta.  Otherwise, a save and a bug report would be helpful, it might be something wonky with some specific unit.

Quote
Linux Support:  AI War currently does not work in WINE.  But, we have reports that Tidalis does, even though Unity is not officially supported on that platform.

If it does end up running on Linux, will you officially support it, and create Linux installers, etc?  Because games & laziness are pretty much the only reasons why I haven't switched to Linux, so knowing that AI Wars was fully supported would be cool.  Plus I have some friends that might be interested if it ran on Linux, but otherwise aren't interested.

No, we won't be officially supporting Linux if Unity doesn't, because if there are issues then there's just nothing we can do about it, it's in the Unity area.  I don't think Linux particularly uses installers, at least not in the sense of Windows.  At some point, if Unity improves their Linux support and officially supports it, we intend to do the same.  In the meantime, it's sort of swim at your own risk with AI War on Linux, simply because we don't have any control over the low-level code to the degree we'd need to do any fixes there.  Same as with the faux-fullscreen support, that's just out of our hands.

Although, I suppose I could dig out the little eve window grabber and use that to move the window.  But having it native would be cool.  Maybe you could check out the window grabber program and put in code like that into AI War it's self.  Or something....  Personally, the only reason at all to not play in Faux-Fullscreen would be if it was fully dual screen supported, like Supreme Commander.  Every other game I play if windowed....  *shrug* I suppose it's not a big loss, but it's something to whine about, and let you know that it will be missed, etc.   :P

To be clear, you can still play windowed, you just get the toolbar at the top and the "chrome" along the sides.  We won't be writing any windowing helpers to go with the game, I can promise that, because: 1) it's not something that would be cross-platform, and as much as possible we're not going to develop solo-platform features; 2) if there are already third party apps, those are battle-tested and you might as well just use them; 3) I'm not a C++ programmer, nor do I want to be, and having worked with windowing functions and global OS hooks some in the past is enough to make me never want to again.  It's different on every OS, and it's nasty, and it frequently breaks or has unintended consequences on the user's system.

But, if it's as popular of a feature as some folks make out, then hopefully Unity will add support for it in the next version or two...
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Offline Dragon

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I'll post a new save in the thread I had talked to you guys about it before.  Along with more details.
http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,5850.0.html

As far as linux goes, they do have packages....  But yeah, I can understand not supporting it if Unity doesn't.  And I guess the "normal" windowed mode will work fine... :D

Offline x4000

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So, evidently Arcen was among the first 100 developers to order Unity 3D version 3.0.  As I recall, we decided to get into Unity right after they made their announcement -- purely by chance -- and then we bought a version 3.0 license right in that week after it was available.  It only made sense, because when we were buying it that gave us a 20% discount or something along those lines, plus full access to the version 2.0 version that we've been using since March.  So that was a sensible deal, but it's amusing to find ourselves in the "first run" of external beta testers for version 3.0.

I haven't had time to install it or fire it up just yet, but hopefully in the coming weeks will be able to.  We're really excited to see what all is in there.  Looks like the debugger requires MonoDevelop, rather than Visual Studio, which means I won't be using the debugger and Keith is at least moderately unhappy with the debugger already (hey, we'd like to use our IDE of choice), but it's still better than no debugger at all (well, if you're into that sort of thing, which I'm not).  Anyway, I'll have fun poking around at the font capabilities and other settings, etc, when I get a chance, and hopefully can update this thread with other things we can see as improvements once we get AI War onto Unity, and once Unity 3.0 comes out (no idea which will happen first at this time).
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rubikscube

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what's the price of the new unity or is it top secret? :) cause i don't know what to expect, am i suppose to think it's 50 dollars like a basic software or some 3000 $ for a high end developer tool? I think it's the latter.

Offline x4000

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It's $1200 per developer, temporarily, but normally would be $1500: https://store.unity3d.com/shop/

We had to get two licenses, one for Keith and one for myself.  As developer software goes, not too bad really, but it's not cheap either.  The Wii version used to have a footnote saying it cost $15,000, though.  I suspect the PS3 and XBox360 ones are somewhat the same.  But now they've updated their pricing info for the Wii saying that it depends on the distribution channel how much it costs, so perhaps it's far cheaper for Wiiware, and just more expensive for the Wii if you will have it distributed on disks.
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Offline Admiral

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AI War on OSX... Now that's the best thing ever. :)

Looking forward to it!

Cheers...

Offline x4000

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Many thanks!  Long time no see, glad to hear from you again, too!  Hope you've been doing well. :)
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Offline Admiral

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I got your announcement of a new game e-mail, so I immediately purchased it, of course, and then browsed around your site. Life has been busy but good, and I'm gratified to see from reading many of your posts that you are doing well and your firm is growing steadily.

I'm not much of a puzzle game player (I prefer strategy/RPG by far) but your game runs great on my nearly four year old MacBook Pro running OSX 10.6, and looks and sounds extremely nice. (Great job!) Maybe the kids will enjoy it when they're back. Didn't matter if I didn't like it - I wanted to support your endeavor.

When's the iPhone version coming out? It looks like a perfect game for that platform. :)

(Apple makes a neat device, but man it is truly the worst PHONE I've ever owned, and I got my first AMPS cellular phone in 1992.)

Cheers!