Author Topic: Lightning Warheads vs Armored Warheads vs Carriers  (Read 1670 times)

Offline Kahuna

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Lightning Warheads vs Armored Warheads vs Carriers
« on: February 26, 2015, 01:47:42 am »
How come normal Lightning Warheads seem to be more effective vs AI Carriers than Armored Warheads? I thought it would be the other way around since Armored Warheads can do full damage vs single target. Like OMDs they're extremely powerful vs Carriers. This made me wonder how x Warhead vs Carrier mechanic works exactly.

I've attached a save file so you can take a look. There's something like 26000 low ship cap AI ships coming at me (a normal wave from the Quadratic AI) and I have some Warheads in position waiting to be scrapped.

EDIT: Ok my further studies suggest that if I use the Armored Warheads first the Carriers will unload more ships like Neinzul Youngling Commandos. And if I use the normal Warheads first then the Carriers will unload more ships like Stealth Battleships and Tractor Platforms. Keith has said numerous times that the ships inside the Carriers don't exist. But if that's the case then how come this is the case? Does each Carrier have it's own "budget" for each ship type available which it uses when it unloads ships or takes damage? So when I use an Armored Warhead the budget for low ship cap ships (aka high health ships which are prioritized by Armored Warheads) is decreased?

Also using different Warheads at different times seems to affect what ships the Carriers unload. Once I got 239 Raid Starships. I think they were Mark IIIs.

EDIT: I also wonder why using all Warheads at once is more effective than using one at a time. The difference is so big it can make the difference between survival and death.
Using all at once --> 2 Carriers left
Using one at a time --> 10 Carriers left
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 05:09:44 am by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
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Offline motai

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Re: Lightning Warheads vs Armored Warheads vs Carriers
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 04:46:25 am »
there are multiple interactions going on.

lightning warheads hit the smallest units first so i would expect the carriers to unload bigger stuff after getting hit with lightning cause the smaller stuff dies.
armored warheads are the opposite so yes smaller units should unload.

while the units inside the carrier do not exists sorta they are tracked and killed by the warheads in the hp order preference and leftover damage sent to last unit in list.
because the units in the carrier have the carrier hull type instead of their normal hull type i would expect that the warheads would be more effective on the carrier instead of on the unloaded ships depending on what those ships are. there are ships that would be otherwise immune to warheads that can be killed because they are in the carrier.

that is what i can logic from it anyway. keith may have more to add.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Lightning Warheads vs Armored Warheads vs Carriers
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2015, 09:56:33 am »
How come normal Lightning Warheads seem to be more effective vs AI Carriers than Armored Warheads? I thought it would be the other way around since Armored Warheads can do full damage vs single target. Like OMDs they're extremely powerful vs Carriers. This made me wonder how x Warhead vs Carrier mechanic works exactly.
No time to investigate right now, but iirc it sorts the list-of-stuff-inside by largest first or smallest first depending on warhead type, and then starts chewing away.  Also, if there's a carrier in range and also "loose" ships in range, the lightning warhead will tend to hit the loose ones first, and if the armored warhead will tend to hit the carrier first (unless some of those loose ships are big).

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EDIT: Ok my further studies suggest that if I use the Armored Warheads first the Carriers will unload more ships like Neinzul Youngling Commandos. And if I use the normal Warheads first then the Carriers will unload more ships like Stealth Battleships and Tractor Platforms. Keith has said numerous times that the ships inside the Carriers don't exist. But if that's the case then how come this is the case?  Does each Carrier have it's own "budget" for each ship type available which it uses when it unloads ships or takes damage?
They don't exist in the sense of having a full ForegroundObject allocated for each ship, which means it can't track any state about the individual ships (including current-health; but the carrier as a whole does remember any "leftover" damage from the last hit that didn't actually kill something inside).

But the carrier does know exactly how many of each type of ship is inside.  So it knows it has 200 MkII Commandos, 300 MkIII Commandos, 20 MkIII SSB's, and 10 MkIV SSB's, or whatever it is.  It remembers that from the time the carrier was created, and doesn't make that stuff up on the fly (in the past, when carriers could die before their contents, it could "combine" the contents into a smaller number of more powerful ships for performance reasons).


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So when I use an Armored Warhead the budget for low ship cap ships (aka high health ships which are prioritized by Armored Warheads) is decreased?
Essentially, yes.  It sorts the contents and sees that the MkIV SSB's (or whatever) have the highest strength cost for an individual unit, and chews on those first if it's an Armored warhead.  With a Lightning warhead it does the opposite.

That's why a lightning warhead can cause the "number" on a carrier to drop much more than an armored warhead: it's a lot easier to kill those commandos than those SSBs.  That _may_ make the carrier overall less dangerous, or it might not.  Depends on the specific ships in question and what defenses you have.  Personally I care more about killing SSBs than commandos in a major attack situation.


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EDIT: I also wonder why using all Warheads at once is more effective than using one at a time. The difference is so big it can make the difference between survival and death.
Using all at once --> 2 Carriers left
Using one at a time --> 10 Carriers left
That I don't have a ready explanation for.  The detonations are processed sequentially, so it seems like the commutative property of addition would be on our side here ;)  Though, depending on how many ships each carrier is left with, sometimes 2 full carriers are worse than 10 lightly-loaded ones.
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Offline motai

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Re: Lightning Warheads vs Armored Warheads vs Carriers
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2015, 10:14:31 am »
had a clarity moment. the selection of your warheads may have mattered in the carrier detonation comparison.

bomber first ship in carrier lightning warhead wont kill it so that carrier is "safe" from carryover?
but armored warheads to clear the starships out of carriers first would leave the lightning warheads to be more effective against the remaining chaff in the carrier.

since the lightning has the max 200k damage setting a starship in the carrier can interfere with warhead effectiveness.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Lightning Warheads vs Armored Warheads vs Carriers
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2015, 10:21:40 am »
since the lightning has the max 200k damage setting a starship in the carrier can interfere with warhead effectiveness.
Actually, there's a specific exception to the max-damage-per-unit rule when hitting a carrier.  Basically a warhead hitting just a carrier will always get its total damage applied to the contents of that carrier (unless the carrier doesn't have that much total hp inside, of course).

That's to avoid fiddliness where lightning warheads stop doing much-at-all to a carrier stocked with units over the damage-per-unit threshold.
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