Author Topic: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required  (Read 4391 times)

Offline Revenantus

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The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« on: November 29, 2009, 08:52:50 am »
Some of you may be aware of an upcoming product called the OOMouse, an 18 button mouse from WarMouse. Here's the description from WarMouse's website.

"Warmouse designed the OOMouse with the goal of creating the best and most useful mouse the digital world has seen to date. Initially inspired by the keyboards on the Treo smartphones, it was designed by a game designer who was annoyed with the paltry number of buttons available on high-end gaming mice. Because gaming mice have historically been designed primarily for FPS games, not MMO and RTS games, they do not possess sufficient buttons for the dozens of commands, actions and spells that are required in games that make heavy use of icon bars and pull-down menus. After discovering that the World of Warcraft mice available at the time were nothing more than regular two-button mice decorated with orcs, dwarves, and Night elves, the WarMouse concept was born. After much experimentation, it was determined that 16 buttons divided into two 8-button halves were the maximum number of buttons that could be efficiently used by feel alone. And in the process of design and development, it quickly became apparent that many non-gaming applications would also benefit from having dozens of commands accessible directly from the mouse, especially applications with nested pull-down menus and hotkey combinations. OpenOffice.org was selected as the ideal application suite around which to design an application mouse because the usage tracking feature of OpenOffice.org 3.1 permitted the assignment of application commands to mouse buttons based on the data gathered from more than 600 million actual mouse and keystroke commands enacted by users." - http://warmouse.com/about.html

We think that this device has the potential to enhance AI War's gameplay experience by providing a convenient and effective method of interacting with the game. Fiskbit and myself have been drafting a default control profile for the device for use with AI War, and would greatly appreciated player feedback on our progress so far.



We've been trying to determine what we think the most useful shortcuts are, and how we can position them most effectively. What shortcuts do you use regularly that we haven't included? How would you change the layout to make it more intuitive and convenient?

Of particular interest is whether to include G as a shortcut, or instead a macro to toggle the group/lone move button at the bottom left of the interface. What are players' thoughts on this?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 09:35:09 am by Revenantus »

Offline Echo35

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2009, 02:59:04 pm »
Ah yes, that mouse that Open Office said no thanks to, but the guy went ahead and branded it "OOMouse" anyway ;D. Personally, what I'd like to see more than this is the ability to customize the layout of any mouse. My own mouse has a few extra buttons I'd like to use, and a buddy of mine has that awful 15 button WoW mouse. So yeah, I like this idea, and would like to see it extended to the point where the end user can set macros themselves (Yeah, I know you could use a 3rd party program for that, but ingame support would be nice).

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2009, 04:14:25 pm »
Might easily be the worst mouse design in existence.

Me, Logitech MX518 is where its at. That mouse is the pinacle of mice. No other is better (just different ,p)

Also, this is advertising ^^  ::)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 04:24:11 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline x4000

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2009, 11:22:04 pm »
Okay, first of all, here are a few notes from one of the co-founders at Warmouse:

Quote
Just so you know, this comment is absolutely and completely untrue: "Ah yes, that mouse that Open Office said no thanks to, but the guy went ahead and branded it "OOMouse" anyway Grin."  This is from a wildly inaccurate Engadget article, which they subsequently altered for fear that we would successfully sue them after we informed them that we had express written consent from OpenOffice.org to call the mouse the OpenOfficeMouse and put their logo on it from the start.  What happened was that Sun - who owns the trademarks - freaked out for a few days after people started thinking that OpenOffice.org was doing the mouse.  They wound up telling us that we could go ahead and call the mouse whatever we want, put their logo on the box, and perhaps even put the logo on the mouse if we still wanted to do so.  We still have very good relations with them and will be shipping OOo 3.2 in the box with the mouse.

Anyhow, because a lot of people thought the mouse only worked with OpenOffice, we informed them that while we appreciated the re-confirmed permission, we weren't going to keep the OpenOffice branding.  We're only calling it the OOMouse until we do our next press release, at which point we'll announce the new black color, the new name, and hopefully, the switch to a laser sensor.  We already have the black prototypes in; I'll send you a picture this week.

While I wasn't there for any of that and can't confirm that first-hand, the guy I've been speaking to there is really down to earth and really into gaming and so forth.  I've known a number of entrepreneurs in various industries, and quite a few are very much over-excited and over-hyping whatever "best thing since sliced bread" product they have.  I don't get that vibe from the Warmouse folks at all. They have a much more mature, down-to-earth attitude.  They know full well what they are making: a fairly niche product that will mystify most of the larger market, but which will be absolutely wonderful for their specific niche.

I know that they got some bad press at one point because of the whole OpenOffice thing, but I don't think that's a reason for anyone to look down on them.  What matters is not that a company has had no problems, but how they handle the problems that they do encounter.

eRe4s3r: to your comments, I don't really feel like those are particularly constructive.  While this might not be a mouse design you enjoy, a lot of thought has clearly gone into it and it's something that a certain subset of mouse users would probably really like.  I don't care for the "Gamer Pad" or whatever you call them mice, which combine the left part of the keyboard with a bulky mouse and trackball combo, but clearly those are popular enough with certain folks.  I also really can't use tablet PCs or tablet input devices with any comfort, but clearly those are a godsend for graphic artists and others with specific needs in that area.

Is the Warmouse a godsend for any particular niche?  This is a new product, so only time will tell.  For my part I think it is intriguing, and I like the specs and design on it better than its competitors from what I have seen, but it is not a type of product I have used personally in the past.  At the moment I use a 5-button Intellimouse, and have been for the last 8 years, and absolutely love it.  Before any substantive cross-promotion deals between Arcen Games and Warmouse are made, I'll be test driving their mouse to make sure that it is something I'd be comfortable in recommending.  I doubt it will be a replacement for me for things like programming work or web browsing, but for certain applications -- 3D rendering, possibly word processing, and definitely certain games -- I could personally see getting really hooked on a setup like this.  The thumbstick is a particularly big seller for me. 

But, time will tell, as I've not had any hands-on time with it yet.  Right now all we're talking about is a profile for AI War on the mouse, so that people who do want to use the Warmouse to play AI War can do so in an ideal way.  Is this cross-promotion?  Of course.  At the moment, Arcen and Warmouse have target markets that overlap to a fair degree (hardcore gamers of certain sorts are also often hardcore gadgeteers).  So Arcen and Warmouse are looking into making the most of this overlap with some cross-promotion, which should be to the benefit of both companies as well as customers who would be interested in both products.  And for those customers who are only interested in one product or the other, it doesn't have any effect on you at all.  If the Warmouse isn't of interest to you, don't buy it -- similarly, for customers of the Warmouse, if AI War isn't something they are interested in, they shouldn't buy AI War.  But for those who do want both, we're aiming to sweeten the experience.

Remember, just because someone is doing some promotion does not make them evil.  When I was first promoting AI War around the good old friendly Internets, I was called all sorts of terrible names, including "one step up from a viagra ad."  Then suddenly AI War became popular and people started talking about it of their own accord, and then I became a hero for going to various forums to answer questions and interact with customers.  But. It. Was. The. Same. Thing. I'd. Been. Doing. Before.  More or less, anyway.  Perception is everything, and if Warmouse becomes popular and certain people are finding it useful and helpful for their uses, then this early static will be largely forgotten as the same static with the launch of AI War is all but buried 6 months on. 

If their product isn't useful and good, or if it is good but simply doesn't connect with their target market for whatever reason, then it will die.  Plain and simple.  The same was true of AI War.  It's popular now, but if I hadn't been doing all that legwork for all those months, it would have died at so many given points.  The majority of you who are reading this and love the game would have never known of its existence.  The Warmouse folks are trying to do the same sort of thing with their product, just like any other small company does when launching a product, and I respect that.  If they were just in it for profit they would never make such an obscure product; the fact that they have means that they have found an unserved or underserved niche, evaluated it, and aim to serve that niche.  That's the spirit of entrepreneurship right there, and it's something I respect.  Cash-in "me too" products are something I don't respect, but from everything I have seen so far, that is not Warmouse at all.

Time will tell what all happens with this, if Arcen and Warmouse pursue a stronger partnership together in the future, but I wanted to let you know where I am coming from and why I am involved with this.  It is my view that we small companies that serve niche markets need to stick together.  There are a few other partnerships that we'll likely be announcing in the coming months, and all of those are similarly aimed at bolstering the customer base of both companies involved.  This is what small companies need to do to survive if they are not an overnight, amazing, one-in-a-million success.  You can't have it both ways: either you want the large, monolithic, stable-but-boring companies that keep pushing out the same old products with small tweaks, or you want small companies that do things that no-one has ever seen before.  For me, I intend to always be the latter, and supporting the latter wherever I can.

In the end it looks like this Warmouse relationship might have a number of benefits for AI War and Arcen, but when they contacted me I decided to pursue further conversations knowing that it might not lead to any benefit to Arcen.  I pursued it partly because it is my credo to always explore every potential opportunity until it turns infeasible/undesirable or until it is realized, but also partly just because the idea looked cool and I wanted to support that.  So that's the inside scoop, let me know if you guys have more questions.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 02:01:44 am »
I've actually seen that mouse before, and i just gotta say... :P A few extra buttons are all well and good, but ~19? The main niche i can see this being used by is the 5 WoW gamers that think the dedicated WoW mouse (has like 10 buttons) doesn't have enough buttons on it ;). And honestly, i've never even heard about Warmouse, and didn't know they made that mouse. Speaking as (perhaps a special case of) a photoshop user and an avid RTS player, i can confidently say that i won't be buying that mouse. I like my Razer just fine :)

Not to say though that it's a bad idea to make an AI war profile for Warmouse, just adding my couple cents.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 02:07:31 am »
Yeah thats all good and nice (i just stated its like advertising (given its the top sticky!), not that its evil ;p) Mhh, not sure what spurred your lengthy reply...

If the mouse were real, ie for sale i could see the point, but from what i gather nobody can buy it anywhere. My point is, this post and topic is about a mouse thats not for sale and not finished.  ;) Ergo its not real. Unless someone can point me to a location with a order page and a price... (Don't bother, i looked it up before i said that  ;D)

There is no point in making a control profile without having the MOUSE to confirm they are actually humanly usable. No?  :D I don't want to be the guy burning down the party tent though, so if this something people want to do.. well why not ;)

Why Fail? Because i am 3D-Designer and Graphic Guy and what i need is a larger tablet with high res OLED display and less delay - Not a fancier mouse. I know 2 very heavy office workers, and they know exactly 3 shortcuts (ctrl + C/V/S) nobody of them wants to type and constantly grab a mouse for macros.  ;D

Well since i am bluesnews poster maybe i should put more fluffy words in my opinion postings  ;D

Anyway sorry for the Off-Topic post anyhow - maybe i should have just said "Why make a profile for a mouse thats not for sale?"  :) And be silent about my personal feelings about it ;p
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Offline Fiskbit

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 03:17:50 am »
This thread is here to get feedback on a proposed AI War profile that we're designing for this mouse so it can be provided with the mouse when it is launched. If the mouse were already available for people to buy, we wouldn't be able to achieve that goal. :P Furthermore, posting this for public feedback was done so that we can make a profile that people will actually enjoy using.

What we're wondering, for the most part, is if the controls seem to be grouped logically and if there are buttons you'd add or drop. What seems useful that isn't here? What is included that's worthless? Which sounds more appealing: having the group-move button be the g key (so you hold it while issuing a command, a-move command, or FRD command) or a toggle that switches between group move and lone move (like the button on the bottom left of the screen)?

We recognize people haven't used the mouse yet and so there's only so much feedback you can give, but if you're willing to lend a hand, that'd be really appreciated. And, well, if you dislike the design of the mouse, you're entitled to that, but it doesn't particularly help us with designing a profile that will help those who will actually be using the product. :P
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 03:40:15 am »
Yeah and i am sorry about that ;) I only read the first paragraph before posting my reply ;p Don't you know, thats the Slashdot effect, nobody reads TFA ;p

Anyhow ;p :D ;D

AS for making it flow smooth i would say not to make random shortcuts - position shortcuts based on what they do - for example group move , FRD and attack move should all be on ONE lane - with priority based on severity of the command Visual commands should be inner buttons and Movement/attack commands should be exterior buttons.

The analog joystick should not be assigned (not for click either) because thats where the thumb rests and that will be prone to accident presses ;)

There, don't say i can't be constructive ;p
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Offline RCIX

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 03:44:52 am »
Here's an idea:

 * bottom 3 left buttons: build all metal/crystal/exo-shields for given planet
 * Top right button, left side: build menu
 * right button, left side: ship build menu
 * Top button, left side: ctrl-click
 * Middle button, left side: alt-click
 * Top button, right side: V-rightclick
 * Top-left button, right side: alt-rightclick
 * Bottom 3 buttons: cycle through deposits/wormholes
 * Middle button, right side: select ships with 66% or less health
 * Left button, right side: select ships with 33% or less health
 * Stick Directions: toggle various things like group move
 * Stick button and side button: shift/ctrl
 * Middle-click (unless this is used as-is): tab between planet and galaxy mode

Best guess of what i would use if i ever use this mouse (not that i would)...
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Offline warmouse

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 04:38:53 am »
I'm the designer of the aforementioned Warmouse and I thought it might be worthwhile if I set a few things straight, although X4000 has covered the most important points.  These pre-release contacts are marketing, to be sure, but it's far from just marketing.  We have done enough development in the past to know that there are important things we're going to miss if we don't talk to other gamers and game designers and get their input.  For example, when we saw that graphic in the first post, we immediately realized that we did not yet have a means of assigning the "Alt-Left Click" combination to a button.  Thanks to Revenantus's post, we are now adding that functionality and it will be in the mouse at release rather than in the first firmware update six months or so post-release.  It's true that no one can buy the mouse anywhere yet, but it will be available everywhere by March.  February if we're fortunate.  We expect to go to beta in a few weeks.

I can assure you that the mouse is real and really works.  I have used it in everything from MAME and Fantasy General to Call of Duty:Modern Warfare 2 and AI War.  I can also report that in a speed test of the 20 most-used OpenOffice Writer commands, it increased response speed by an average of 28 percent.     The analog/digital joystick is easily the most useful aspect and has enough resistance that it never gets triggered accidentally.  (You will occasionally trigger the wrong command, however, if you're in panic mode.)  We were surprised to learn that the joystick is probably where you want to put your most important commands if you don't need it to move around a map because it's faster than either the buttons or the scroll wheel.  For example, in CoD I use it in 4-key digital mode for crouching, lying prone, running, and hand-to-hand.  The joystick click reloads and double-click switches weapons.  In AI War, however, it will probably be best utilized in analog mode for panning as Revenantus suggested.

We completely understand this mouse isn't for everyone.  We didn't design the mouse for the technophobic masses and we don't expect the sort of person who doesn't know how to use the context menus on the right click to want one.  But considering the large command list used in AI War, we suspect that it will compliment the game very nicely.  Of course, there's only one way to know for sure and that is for the expert players to try it and give their verdict on it.  Anyhow, here is our nomenclature for those who are discussing what command might go on which button:

Mouse buttons: L1, R1

Front row left - A1, A2
Middle row left - A3, A4
Back row left - A5, A6, A7

Front row right- B1, B2
Middle row right - B3, B4
Back row right- B5, B6, B7

Joystick click - T1
Side button - T2

Scrollwheel - S1, S2, S3 (click)

So, to follow RICX's suggestion, build all metal would go on A5, crystal on A6, exo-shields on A7.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 04:41:27 am by warmouse »

Offline Revenantus

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 05:21:17 am »
Welcome to the AI War forum, warmouse, and thank you for clarifying those points. I'm glad to hear you're adding the functionality for mouse clicks with modifier keys, as this will be extremely handy in terms of AI War's interface, and many other games and applications I'm sure.

There is no point in making a control profile without having the MOUSE to confirm they are actually humanly usable. No?  :D I don't want to be the guy burning down the party tent though, so if this something people want to do.. well why not ;)

Obviously the final control scheme will require testing to confirm that it's definitely usable, but that doesn't stop us from doing a lot of valuable work beforehand. Primarily, learning which commands and shortcuts players are most interested in having access to on the mouse are the goals here.

AS for making it flow smooth i would say not to make random shortcuts - position shortcuts based on what they do - for example group move , FRD and attack move should all be on ONE lane - with priority based on severity of the command Visual commands should be inner buttons and Movement/attack commands should be exterior buttons.

Broadly speaking, buttons on the left of the mouse are being used for unit selection and overlay commands, while buttons on the right of the mouse are being used for issuing unit orders. This is a convention that can be challenged if others think this isn't the best approach - I'm still inclined to think it is.

* bottom 3 left buttons: build all metal/crystal/exo-shields for given planet

I think that given that those actions are performed intermittently, dedicating three buttons to that isn't going to be efficient. As it stands, that can be achieved by accessing the build menu by pressing the B button, and then holding ctrl on the left side of the mouse and clicking the relevant icons.

* Top right button, left side: build menu
 * right button, left side: ship build menu

This is my fault for not mentioning that the functionality for doing this is available, but it's possible to have double clicking a button trigger a different key. In this case, I think we'll set D as the double-click for the B button, so we can have both of those menus on the same button.

* Top button, left side: ctrl-click

Ctrl is used so extensively in the interface, for both left and right click commands, that I've placed it on the left side of the mouse. Thoughts from others here?

* Middle button, left side: alt-click
 * Top button, right side: V-rightclick
 * Top-left button, right side: alt-rightclick

All of these are in the current control profile draft, but I want to have the alt clicks assigned symmetrically.

* Bottom 3 buttons: cycle through deposits/wormholes

That's a maybe on the deposits (ctrl-click placement of harvesters has greatly reduced the need for those), but cycling through wormholes is appealing. This is another case of shortcuts that I'm inclined to think are of low priority.

* Middle button, right side: select ships with 66% or less health
 * Left button, right side: select ships with 33% or less health

These are some suggestions that I really need some more feedback on. My original thinking was to keep the selection filters on the keyboard since there are so many, but if there are particular filters that are being used by players very extensively then there is a case for considering adding these to the mouse.

* Stick Directions: toggle various things like group move
 * Stick button and side button: shift/ctrl

Currently the joystick is used for panning. I actually want to keep this as-is unless there's overwhelming opposition for any reason here.

* Middle-click (unless this is used as-is): tab between planet and galaxy mode

Yeah, I think moving tab to the scroll wheel click would be a good call. Thanks for all the great feedback there.

There's going to be another draft of the control profile out later today, but please keep the feedback coming in the meantime.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 05:29:05 am by Revenantus »

Offline RCIX

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 06:01:47 am »
Revised suggestion:
 * A5,A6,A7: Ctrl/Shift/Alt left click (not in that order)
 * A2: split ship group in half
 * A4: remove two-thirds ship group
 * A1: ? (chatbox maybe? i don't use it but others might)
 * A3: Build menu
 * B5,B6,B7: Ctrl/Shift/Alt right click (not in that order)
 * B2: ? (flare maybe? i don't use it but others might)
 * B4: V-rightclick
 * B1: Pause (i picked this button because it is farthest from where the finger would normally be, and i use pause a lot)
 * B3: Menu (i also use this a reasonable amount so it would be nice as a button
 * Stick Directions: panning
 * T1,T2: shift/ctrl
 * Middle-click (unless this is used as-is): tab between planet and galaxy mode
 
Notes:
 * Maybe it's a habit i picked up from SupCom, but since this game has the same great camera system i primarily navigate the map via Zoomoutzoomin, Zoomoutzoomin, etc..., though i suppose i do some panning
 * Since this game has so many features and modifiers and such for clicking i would most definitely give these dedicated buttons, because that will be just that little bit nicer when using this mouse for the game.
 * The selection filters i don't use that much beyond one or two actually.
 * I use V-rightclick a lot, as i suspect most AI war players do.
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Offline warmouse

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 09:06:23 am »
Welcome to the AI War forum, warmouse, and thank you for clarifying those points. I'm glad to hear you're adding the functionality for mouse clicks with modifier keys, as this will be extremely handy in terms of AI War's interface, and many other games and applications I'm sure.

I appreciate being informed that it's needed.  It's always so much easier to get things right BEFORE it goes out the door when you're dealing with hardware.

This is my fault for not mentioning that the functionality for doing this is available, but it's possible to have double clicking a button trigger a different key. In this case, I think we'll set D as the double-click for the B button, so we can have both of those menus on the same button.

Yeah, I should have mentioned this myself.  Every button except the scroll wheel can have a double-click that is distinct from the single click.  This includes T1 and T2.  The caveat is that you cannot hold a button down to repeat the command like sooooooo if you have a double-click assigned to that button.  There are four options for each key: Key, Keypress, Macro, and Mouse Button.  So, if you're using the button as a modifier - having it repeat or holding it down while you click something else - it needs to be a Keypress and cannot have a double-click assigned to that button.  But Keys and Macros can be assigned to clicks or double-clicks, so have one click bring up the B menu and a double-click bringing up D is no problem and frees up a button.

Mouse Button allows for cloning L1 and R1 for people that dislike the small size of the main mouse buttons and is what allows us to assign mouse/key combinations like "Alt-Left Click" to a single button.  I can't definitely confirm that Mouse Button+(X) will be double-clickable until we have it operational, but it should be and for the purposes of this discussion, it's safe to assume that it will be assignable to a click or a double-click.

Offline I-KP

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 10:42:23 am »
Personally speaking, I do not like more than two buttons per finger -- a pinky button is redundant as lateral pressure from the pinky finger is extremely weak in most Humans making such a button irksome -- as more would just become awkward and begin to interfere with response times (assuming FPS-ish response times are important for the application in use - not really applicable to AI War specifically).  Consider even that the index finger is generally the most dexterous of all and the third finger is second to least dexterous (pinky being the least of all).  The follow-on from this being that an equal distribution of buttons across all fingers does not equal an even distribution of usage in practice.  As an avid games player (strategy, RTS, FPS) and a digital artist I could not get along with the above mouse as designed.

The thing that I've often found remiss in multi-button mouse design is the implementation of thumb buttons: quite often they are in a longitudinal arrangement which requires an 'unnatural' thumb movement.  Thumb buttons that are arranged latitudinally are ergonomically satisfactory, yet very rare it seems.  Positioning of a thumb 'knuckle' button is fraught with perils as only a small section of the market will be able to operate it as indented.

I know the design of the above mouse has passed the design phase but I would have liked to have seen only two buttons per finger (side-by-side, perhaps three for the index finger) and three thumb buttons (no 'knuckle' button).  Granted, this results in far fewer buttons in total but if two of the thumb buttons acted as Shift functions you'll multiply the number of available buttons by the number of Shift buttons (two in this example).  Net result would be far more controls than most people will remember (19 options in the 2-Shift thumb button example) and would not sacrifice precision and response time (as contorting digits to reach most of the buttons in the above would do).  Such a mouse would require far fewer microswitches and less wiring to build as well!

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Magrathea.

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Re: The OOMouse: Control Profile Feedback Required
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2009, 11:59:03 am »
One note -- I'm planning to eventually use the middle-click of the mouse button of all mice for its own function.  Mainly for clicking that and panning, I think was the request.  So I'd prefer to keep that free in the Warmouse profile for use in that standard way.
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