The new Hybrids

[Eternaly_Lost]

All transports and carriers should of course be disallowed from entering carriers. (As much fun as "carrierception" would be, it makes no sense)

That would add a third possible outcome to the game: "win", "lose", and "bag of holding".

I can see it now. The AI rushing in with a bunch of ships that take in fire from all the human ships and turrets on the homeworld, not realizing that the the empty AI carriers that came with them have another goal in mind.

They reach the Human Home Command Station and suddenly the whole thing is picked up along with all the cities, statis pods and what not and moved back to the AI Homeworld for proper reeducation.

[Wanderer]

1) I didn't realize the Dyson sphere wouldn't do a blasted thing until you got to it.  Good to know.

The antagonizer will cause it to skip the "not doing anything because the player has never been here" check, fyi.

Good to know.  I was watching my friendly Dysons wander the universe a bit ago and they won't seem to engage the Hybrids.  They were happily shooting up anything else they came across but they ignored the Dysons the same way they ignore guard posts.  Is that expected?

Anyway, while he's in there his logic is probably not processing at all, which is basically a bug.  On the other hand, he'll eventually pop back out when healed.  So I dunno if that needs fixed

Probably not, especially with its regen time.  Just was about to kill him and he flies off into the carrier.  The look on my face must have been priceless.

Each time a hybrid gains maturity XP a certain amount gets added to a central "bank" of points (the amount is much higher if the hybrid is at max maturity already), and when the bank gets big enough it can cash in a bunch of those points to spawn a super hybrid.  But it can't do that if there's already a super hybrid in play. 

So killing hybrids slows down the process, but new hybrids spawn every 25 minutes (1 each from each hybrid spawner, and there's 1 of those seeded at the start on every mkIV or mkV world), and maturity XP ticks up every 10 seconds, so you're not going to be able to completely stop the super ones from spawning without taking out all the hybrids and hybrid spawners (which means no more hybrids at all that game)

Ah, very good to know, thank you.

If the bank has enough there'll be another one almost instantly; otherwise it will take a bit of time to recharge, but it's not the end as long as there's at least one hybrid or hybrid spawner (though that would be a verrrrry slow process).

Ah, okay, I'll stop wrecking the galaxy in that game.  I killed him and didn't realize the dyson antagonizer would disappear with him once he started building it.  Ah well.

I want to see the last piece of the puzzle so I'm not sure if I should pop this little guy.  He's at about 15% when he went and hid in the carrier.

It will delay things if you kill him.  Of course, from the player's perspective, that's the point   Kind of like with other hybrid things: if you can stay on top of things, harass them, and not let them do their own thing for too long they remain a manageable threat.  If allowed to fulfill their plans, however...
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Yeah, except when you're TRYING to let them go.  Ah well, at least it'll give me time to setup anti-AI Dyson defenses.

[keith.lamothe]

I was watching my friendly Dysons wander the universe a bit ago and they won't seem to engage the Hybrids.

Hybrids are mark V, and dyson's can't hurt mark V stuff.  Honestly I'm starting to wonder if the player dysons really need the can't-hurt-mkV flag; the enemy-to-all ones need it because they wind up on AI planets a lot, but that doesn't happen with player dysons (anymore).

Anyway, while he's in there his logic is probably not processing at all, which is basically a bug.  On the other hand, he'll eventually pop back out when healed.  So I dunno if that needs fixed

Probably not, especially with its regen time.

His regen time is probably not applying at all in there, dunno.  I should check on that.  But there's an innate regen from being in a transport.

The look on my face must have been priceless.

Hopefully the hybrids will be doing a lot of that.  Maybe I need to give them camera modules.

Ah, okay, I'll stop wrecking the galaxy in that game.  I killed him and didn't realize the dyson antagonizer would disappear with him once he started building it.  Ah well.

You mean the construction module he had that was building the antagonizer, or the antagonizer after it was already built (and making mr. dyson angry) ?  If the latter, it should behave the same regardless of whether that super hybrid (or any hybrid) stays alive.  It actually continues the new-stuff progression by itself, the super hybrid just sticks around to defend it because right now it doesn't have anything better to do (in my tests sometimes it would go off to build another antagonizer, but it's not really supposed to do that).

Yeah, except when you're TRYING to let them go.  Ah well, at least it'll give me time to setup anti-AI Dyson defenses.

Yea, that would be a good idea.  The dysons themselves are somewhat tough, but it's the sheer relentlessness with which they come that starts to become a more serious problem.  And then other AI attacks start piling in on top, and it gets interesting.  All the while...

[Wanderer]

I was watching my friendly Dysons wander the universe a bit ago and they won't seem to engage the Hybrids.

Hybrids are mark V, and dyson's can't hurt mark V stuff.  Honestly I'm starting to wonder if the player dysons really need the can't-hurt-mkV flag; the enemy-to-all ones need it because they wind up on AI planets a lot, but that doesn't happen with player dysons (anymore).

Ah, a perfectly sensible reason I'd missed earlier, heh.  Oops.  thanks.

You mean the construction module he had that was building the antagonizer, or the antagonizer after it was already built (and making mr. dyson angry) ?  If the latter, it should behave the same regardless of whether that super hybrid (or any hybrid) stays alive.  It actually continues the new-stuff progression by itself, the super hybrid just sticks around to defend it because right now it doesn't have anything better to do (in my tests sometimes it would go off to build another antagonizer, but it's not really supposed to do that).

Nah, it was in the middle of construction, I just thought it was a separate unit and popped by to smack him upside the head.  Oops.  Finally got another super-hybrid to spawn around 8:30 so I'll let him sit back and build it this time.

I've been out smacking the galaxy around lowering AIP for a bit so I'm sitting relatively pretty with 2 botnets and a couple of k-raid outposts.  Time to start building up the Dyson defense.

[keith.lamothe]

Sounds like I may need to make the advanced hybrids build this stuff up a bit faster

[Wanderer]

Sounds like I may need to make the advanced hybrids build this stuff up a bit faster

Please do.  I was basically ignoring the whole 'dyson antagonization' thing for about 2 and a half hours waiting for the final piece letting my wall of turrets do their job before they broke when I hadn't realized it, and at 5xdyson spawn they overran me in nothing flat once it fell.  My most recent savegame is about 4 hours ago.  Not sure I want to go through this whole bit again just to see what they do.

The dyson antagonization, btw, with 5x spawn, isn't just fierce, it's downright NASTY.  I had two fortress Is, a Turret wall of MRM IIs and Laser IIs, some Basic III's, 15 rebuilders and 10 engis dedicated to stopping the eternal spawn.

My guess is some zombies got in the way at some point so they massed outside my range and hit with 15-20 of them at once.  If you weren't dominating the game you wouldn't be able to survive to see the third hybrid strike anyway.  You'll never let them spawn up the dyson antagonizer like this, it's just too powerful. 

By the time my main fleet got there from 7 jumps away to help cover the rebuild they'd multiplied from 60 to 230 spawns, and were just pounding away on the friendly Dysons who couldn't shoot back.  My entire fleet couldn't handle the constant reinforcements and taking down what had already spawned.  It's pretty much an H/K exo that never ends.  Nothing can really stand up to it if you let them get any kind of foothold.

Oh, yeah.. might I recommend the spawn volume be knocked back a bit?  Say, 2/spawn instead of 5?  You might be able to beat that back at 2 per.  At 5 per... yeaaaah... no.

[keith.lamothe]

Haha, I had wondered about the 6x spawns.  That's actually what the dyson does if you capture its planet, and the antagonizer was just piggy backing onto that.  Well, just as well you didn't hit the next stage, I suppose (cough-20x-cough).

So in your game the super hybrid didn't show up until 4 hours in; how long after that did you see the warning about the building of the antagonizer?  How long after the warning does the antagonizer spawn?  If you have advanced logging on there should be 2 hybrid .txt log files in your RuntimeData directory (which info would give you a strategic advantage if used, but it's more important for me to be able to get that kind of info from players to make sure this is working).

I tested the whole thing probably about 5 times from start to finish and it happened more quickly than that, but I wasn't killing lots of hybrids.  I want killing hybrids to help slow them down, and I want you to have a decent time window at each step to throw a wrench in their plans (generally by blowing up everything), but particularly on advanced hybrids I want you to actually see this stuff in a normal game

[Wanderer]

Haha, I had wondered about the 6x spawns.  That's actually what the dyson does if you capture its planet, and the antagonizer was just piggy backing onto that.  Well, just as well you didn't hit the next stage, I suppose (cough-20x-cough).

Cringe.  Duuuude.  Seriously.

So in your game the super hybrid didn't show up until 4 hours in; how long after that did you see the warning about the building of the antagonizer?

First time took it till 4:30 to spawn roughly, antagonizer started building about 5, hadn't finished at 5:20 when I popped both of them.

Second spawn was around 8:30.  Antagonizer started around 10:30, finished around 11:00 or so, at 13:30 still hadn't started stage III, but was a moot point at that point.

How long after the warning does the antagonizer spawn?  If you have advanced logging on there should be 2 hybrid .txt log files in your RuntimeData directory (which info would give you a strategic advantage if used, but it's more important for me to be able to get that kind of info from players to make sure this is working).

I do but there's so much stuff in there...  Let's see.  Ah crap, I'd turned it off.  This is from an ancient game.

I tested the whole thing probably about 5 times from start to finish and it happened more quickly than that, but I wasn't killing lots of hybrids.  I want killing hybrids to help slow them down, and I want you to have a decent time window at each step to throw a wrench in their plans (generally by blowing up everything), but particularly on advanced hybrids I want you to actually see this stuff in a normal game

Well, that's just it.  In a 'normal game' I'm not sure I would ever let the dyson antagonizer exist longer then 5 seconds.  The firepower is just too brutal. If I couldn't get to it in a game where I'm playing a tight match I'd probably just restart a new game.  I'll never see stage III in a game where I couldn't pwn the universe anyway, and I doubt anyone else will either once that 5xspawn starts going.

[keith.lamothe]

Well, that's just it.  In a 'normal game' I'm not sure I would ever let the dyson antagonizer exist longer then 5 seconds.  The firepower is just too brutal. If I couldn't get to it in a game where I'm playing a tight match I'd probably just restart a new game.  I'll never see stage III in a game where I couldn't pwn the universe anyway, and I doubt anyone else will either once that 5xspawn starts going.

For 5.024 it's down to 2x for the antagonizer (the next stage also significantly toned down) but things come about faster.  We'll see how it goes

And yea, you're not really supposed to let them get away with it; but stopping them will probably pull you out of position at least a little, requires some scout coverage, some firepower, etc.  How many hops were you having to go from your territory to get to the super hybrid and antagonizer?

[Wanderer]

Well, that's just it.  In a 'normal game' I'm not sure I would ever let the dyson antagonizer exist longer then 5 seconds.  The firepower is just too brutal. If I couldn't get to it in a game where I'm playing a tight match I'd probably just restart a new game.  I'll never see stage III in a game where I couldn't pwn the universe anyway, and I doubt anyone else will either once that 5xspawn starts going.

For 5.024 it's down to 2x for the antagonizer (the next stage also significantly toned down) but things come about faster.  We'll see how it goes

And yea, you're not really supposed to let them get away with it; but stopping them will probably pull you out of position at least a little, requires some scout coverage, some firepower, etc.  How many hops were you having to go from your territory to get to the super hybrid and antagonizer?

From the real fighting area?  About 10.  It deployed it 4 systems off the AI homeworld.  That's a deepstrike at least to get to it.  I had created a few satellite systems out of boredom that meant it wouldn't have, but not if I'd been playing at level.  Looking forward to the faster creation but toned down versions.  Those might be fun, if deadly as H3C#!

[Coppermantis]

A bit off-topic, but is there a minimum difficulty level for the new Hybrid Behaviors to happen? I want to try a game with some new features (Just the Adv. Hybrids+Dyson and Cross-Planet AI Waves but I fear the last one might make it over-the-top on higher difficulties so I'm worried that if I set it too low this new hybrid stuff wwon't happen.

[keith.lamothe]

A bit off-topic, but is there a minimum difficulty level for the new Hybrid Behaviors to happen? I want to try a game with some new features (Just the Adv. Hybrids+Dyson and Cross-Planet AI Waves but I fear the last one might make it over-the-top on higher difficulties so I'm worried that if I set it too low this new hybrid stuff wwon't happen.

All that needs to be on is the Advanced Hybrids (if you want all of it) and the Dyson   Later on I hope to add other ones that don't involve the dyson, but perhaps involve something else.

[TechSY730]

A bit off-topic, but is there a minimum difficulty level for the new Hybrid Behaviors to happen? I want to try a game with some new features (Just the Adv. Hybrids+Dyson and Cross-Planet AI Waves but I fear the last one might make it over-the-top on higher difficulties so I'm worried that if I set it too low this new hybrid stuff wwon't happen.

All that needs to be on is the Advanced Hybrids (if you want all of it) and the Dyson   Later on I hope to add other ones that don't involve the dyson, but perhaps involve something else.

So the Dyson aggravator does not spawn with not-advanced hybrids?

[keith.lamothe]

So the Dyson aggravator does not spawn with not-advanced hybrids?

The antagonizer is buildable by the super hybrid in both normal and advanced hybrids.  In the new version it will just take significantly less time on Advanced to happen.

[TechSY730]

So the Dyson aggravator does not spawn with not-advanced hybrids?

The antagonizer is buildable by the super hybrid in both normal and advanced hybrids.  In the new version it will just take significantly less time on Advanced to happen.

Oh dear, and my game is nearing the 5 hour mark, which, if I read GUdare's report correctly, is about when the first dyson antagonizor will start construction.
And the super hybrid in my game decided to park itself on an AI core world. I can pretty much forget about deep sticking that, WAY too well defended.
Hopefully, the super hybrid will move in a little closer before dropping off that thing.