The Future of the Enclave Starship

[Cinth]

It would be an interesting experiment to try settings the drones to all have a 1 damage attack with a 30 second reload or something, just to see how helpful the "clutter" factor is in supporting a regular fleet.

Just going to point out that you can do something similar without changing anything.  Clean a system with an AI Fortress. Add an enclave to the point to where the fort just begins to take damage.  Once you find that saturation point, everything else does damage and snowballs.

Using drones as a smokescreen did get adjusted awhile back (not sure when exactly) to make the spawners more of a priority, they just need to get into range first.

Also, I just cleared a homeworld adjacent planet with 124 AI ships with a single Mark I Enclave. I moved it into the system and did not touch another thing. It killed everything automatically. The Enclave dropped to 68% health while its drones cleared out the ships near the wormhole, but after that it never took additional damage. This was on 10/10 so I had a fair smattering of Mark II enemy ships.

Assuming at the every beginning of the match? 124 ships divided between every gp in the system is hardly definitive.  Lemme ask what was the AI's kill count on the drones?

[TechSY730]

Yea, I don't know why drones themselves need a high range. Their high move speed speed already gives the enclave itself a large effective "range".

I think the drones were based on the basic turrets, not the basic triangle fleet ships, so that really is the comparison you should be looking at.

That said, your point about health and range still stands. Turrets are rather strong compared to their equivalent fleet ship (on a unit by unit basis, not on a cap basis), especially in the HP and range departments. I guess maybe the ratio of HP and range compared to their turret counterparts needs to come down some more.


Also, I also like the idea of longer lifetime, slower speed, and slower spawn rate. Seems more manageable in general too.

[Draco18s]

Using drones as a smokescreen did get adjusted awhile back (not sure when exactly) to make the spawners more of a priority, they just need to get into range first.

The problem is, it rarely happens.

[Cinth]

Have you tried comparing drones to high cap stuff like mini pods?  Numbers are really the only real advantage they have.  They need range to at least get a shot off.  Most drones end up just as a salvage marker for the AI. 

So what you end up with is the drone itself is usually half dead by the time it gets in range, fires once or twice and dies.  Kinda like a dock cannon running off railpods (and that's something that can be sustained also). 

Using drones as a smokescreen did get adjusted awhile back (not sure when exactly) to make the spawners more of a priority, they just need to get into range first.

The problem is, it rarely happens.

Take on a larger Threat Fleet or SF fleet mid game with just Enclaves and see how long it takes to clear it (if you can at all).

[Draco18s]

The problem is, it rarely happens.

Take on a larger Threat Fleet or SF fleet mid game with just Enclaves and see how long it takes to clear it (if you can at all).

Well obviously against a force of vastly superior numbers it won't work.

[Cinth]

Well obviously against a force of vastly superior numbers it won't work.

Doesn't have to be a vastly superior force.  Just enough ships that can either survive long enough or have a combined shot count high enough to cut through the drones (like rail clusters).

[chemical_art]

I really don't see the problem of enclaves. They seem strong, but that is only because they fill a niche no other unit really can.

They do not a lot of dps, they are fragile, and absorb a lot of energy. On offense, they can be useful after a beachhead is setup, but the same could be said for almost all long range units. Only with a massive tech + strength investment can they really clear out a system.

Enclaves are like modern nautical aircraft carriers. They can strike really far range, however they are pathetic at close range.  Units don't usually get close range, but that is because after an initial beachhead, AI responds in piece mail. The blob crushes the piece mail units, and the enclave keeps agitating a system until eventually it clears. Enclaves stir up the AI on offense, allowing the blob to not move without external circumstances.

Enclaves are terrible on defense, because their dps is bad. Defense shows just how helpless enclaves are if they can't dictate the terms of engagement, and what happens when their blob isn't strong enough to shred attacks on the enclave.

[Aklyon]

I'm going to go with chemical art here. Old enclaves were never used, current enclaves only have an effect when there are mobile enemies to attack in the system.
Unlike MSDs, you can't halt them and cloak when the enemy approaches, you have to move them, when they are not the fastest ships in the galaxy, nor the toughest. And they don't have to be either of those, they're supposed to stay out of battle and let the drones move in. When the battle comes to them, they get destroyed most of the time.

Also, for Toranth's 1 attack/30 sec reload idea, that sounds useless! People were talking very recently about how the electric shuttles & lightning starship were pretty weak, partly due to having a 20 second reload.

[Toranth]

Also, for Toranth's 1 attack/30 sec reload idea, that sounds useless! People were talking very recently about how the electric shuttles & lightning starship were pretty weak, partly due to having a 20 second reload.

Whoa, let me clarify - I was not suggesting this as a balance solution.  It would be terrible indeed, especially with drones that don't live 30 seconds.  No, what I was suggesting was that if someone (a developer?) felt like playing around with settings, making the drones have zero significant impact on combat would let you determine how much of the Enclave's impact was due to DPS and how much was due to the "clutter" effect.

But, no, not a balance solution.  Just an experiment to gather data.

[Hearteater]

Enclaves are terrible on defense, because their dps is bad. Defense shows just how helpless enclaves are if they can't dictate the terms of engagement, and what happens when their blob isn't strong enough to shred attacks on the enclave.

This is not true. Enclave Starship drones deal between 664 and 712 DPS (depending on armor) against homogeneous targets on average. Against certain armor types, like Ultra-Light and Neutron, Enclave put out 850 to 899 DPS. Against targets with mixed hulls where the drones can fire on their optimal targets, damage can reach a maximum of 1370 to 1419 DPS. If you assume a fight in which only 50% of drones can fire on a target they get a bonus against, DPS comes to between 822 and 871.

Meanwhile, Plasma Starships deal 1000 DPS (not accounting for the AOE) and Heavy Bombers deal 1350 DPS. If you account for overkills, the big hits from both the Plasma and Heavy Bomber can cause them to lose 40% to 79% of their DPS against triangle ships (and most other fleet ships of similar cap). In fact, against mixed triangle ships the Heavy Bomber deals only 21.5% more DPS than an Enclave. In other words, an Enclave has 78.5% of a Heavy Bomber Starship's effective DPS.

In conclusion, I think the belief that Enclave DPS is "terrible" is unfounded. It compares reasonably to other Starships, but it is much safer and clutters the battle field protecting your more valuable units. Its optimal cases is better than any standard Starship except an equally optimal Plasma.

[chemical_art]

Enclaves are terrible on defense, because their dps is bad. Defense shows just how helpless enclaves are if they can't dictate the terms of engagement, and what happens when their blob isn't strong enough to shred attacks on the enclave.

This is not true. Enclave Starship drones deal between 664 and 712 DPS (depending on armor) against homogeneous targets on average. Against certain armor types, like Ultra-Light and Neutron, Enclave put out 850 to 899 DPS. Against targets with mixed hulls where the drones can fire on their optimal targets, damage can reach a maximum of 1370 to 1419 DPS. If you assume a fight in which only 50% of drones can fire on a target they get a bonus against, DPS comes to between 822 and 871.

Meanwhile, Plasma Starships deal 1000 DPS (not accounting for the AOE) and Heavy Bombers deal 1350 DPS. If you account for overkills, the big hits from both the Plasma and Heavy Bomber can cause them to lose 40% to 79% of their DPS against triangle ships (and most other fleet ships of similar cap). In fact, against mixed triangle ships the Heavy Bomber deals only 21.5% more DPS than an Enclave. In other words, an Enclave has 78.5% of a Heavy Bomber Starship's effective DPS.

In conclusion, I think the belief that Enclave DPS is "terrible" is unfounded. It compares reasonably to other Starships, but it is much safer and clutters the battle field protecting your more valuable units. Its optimal cases is better than any standard Starship except an equally optimal Plasma.

Enclaves never hit their on paper dps for a couple of reasons:

1. They lose damage because the drones are not always alive (and thus able to fire). Especially on defense they will live long enough to fire maybe 1-2 volleys in their 8 second cycle due to low health and losing health toward destination.
2. Because each new wave forgets fire priorities, and because they only fire so few volleys, I would say far less then 50% of their damage is bonused.

And then defensively...
1. Cluttering is overrated on defense. When you have several hundred, if not thousand of enemy ships, a few dozen pieces of paper will have a mild impact.
2. In addition to their lackluster defense, enclaves themselves lack the HP and/or speed other combat ships have.

[Hearteater]

The numbers have shown what Enclaves can delivery. My in-game observations and yours differ as to how well they deliver on those numbers. Also, I question if each wave does forget firing priorities since matching ships share a single target list, new waves should pick up the list from their friends.

[Toranth]

Enclaves are terrible on defense, because their dps is bad. Defense shows just how helpless enclaves are if they can't dictate the terms of engagement, and what happens when their blob isn't strong enough to shred attacks on the enclave.

This is not true. Enclave Starship drones deal between 664 and 712 DPS (depending on armor) against homogeneous targets on average. Against certain armor types, like Ultra-Light and Neutron, Enclave put out 850 to 899 DPS. Against targets with mixed hulls where the drones can fire on their optimal targets, damage can reach a maximum of 1370 to 1419 DPS. If you assume a fight in which only 50% of drones can fire on a target they get a bonus against, DPS comes to between 822 and 871.

Meanwhile, Plasma Starships deal 1000 DPS (not accounting for the AOE) and Heavy Bombers deal 1350 DPS. If you account for overkills, the big hits from both the Plasma and Heavy Bomber can cause them to lose 40% to 79% of their DPS against triangle ships (and most other fleet ships of similar cap). In fact, against mixed triangle ships the Heavy Bomber deals only 21.5% more DPS than an Enclave. In other words, an Enclave has 78.5% of a Heavy Bomber Starship's effective DPS.

In conclusion, I think the belief that Enclave DPS is "terrible" is unfounded. It compares reasonably to other Starships, but it is much safer and clutters the battle field protecting your more valuable units. Its optimal cases is better than any standard Starship except an equally optimal Plasma.

Something is wrong with your math.
Without multipliers, Enclave drones do 220 DPS.  Each drone type has a maximum multiplier of 5, so even if all the drones got maximum bonus, you can only get 1,100 DPS.  This number can only go down if armor is introduced, so I have no idea where you are getting 1419 DPS from.
The bonuses do have some overlap (Ultra-Heavy, for example) but also uniques (such as Composite) that only one drone can get a bonus against.

Here's a breakdown of all the drone damage delaing:

Drone spawns:
8 drones every 7 seconds, lifespan of 30 seconds.

Type	Damage/reload	Per unit DPS	Damage over lifespan
Needler	14/2	7	210
Missile	30/5	6	180
MLRS	14x3/5	8.4	252
Laser	18/3	6	180

NCC

Type	Damage/reload	Per unit DPS	Damage over lifespan
Grav	60/4	15	480
Beam	400x3/7(*)	171*	1200
Rail	16x5/4	20	640
Spider	8x5/4	10	320

4 spawns can be alive simultaneously.

DPS per spawn:
Enclave:  55 DPS
NCC: 432 DPS (90 w/o Beam)

Max DPS with all drones:
Enclave:  220 DPS
NCC:  702 DPS

[Hearteater]

Actually, your math is incorrect due to an incorrect assumption. There can be 5 drone waves out since they spawn every 6 seconds (see the attached screen shot showing 20 Mark I drones at a time. Each Mark I Enclave spawns 2, 2x2 enclaves = 4 per wave, 4x5 waves = 20 drones). If you don't understand how Armor Piercing increases DPS, just go with the lower of the two numbers in each pair.

[Toranth]

Actually, your math is incorrect due to an incorrect assumption. There can be 5 drone waves out since they spawn every 6 seconds (see the attached screen shot showing 20 Mark I drones at a time. Each Mark I Enclave spawns 2, 2x2 enclaves = 4 per wave, 4x5 waves = 20 drones). If you don't understand how Armor Piercing increases DPS, just go with the lower of the two numbers in each pair.

If you look at the rightmost column of the tables I posted, you'll see the "Damage over lifespan" column.  That is the total amount of damage a drone of that type can do during the 30 seconds it lives.
Sum up that column, multiply by 2 (for 2 drones per spawn), then divide by 30 to get the spawn DPS.  If your drone spends less than the full 30 seconds in range of the target, this number can go down.

Enclave total per spawn Damage = (210 + 180 + 252 + 180) * 2 = 822 * 2 = 1,644
1644/30 = 54.8, or roughly 55 DPS.

Four simultaneous spawns = 220 DPS.
Five simultaneous spawns = 275 DPS.
But five simultaneous spawns requires that your drones be within 1 second of target, move, and fire from the instant they are spawned: a circumstance that almost never occurs.  Given the AI's prioritization of the Enclave itself over your drones, that usually means your Enclave is under attack (and soon dead).  Even in your screenshot, your drones are only doing 66%-ish of max DPS.
Even assuming that all of your targets are within range of spawned drones, AND your drones face no delays in targeting and firing, AND your Enclaves don't die, AND all the drones get max multiplier against their targets, you can still only get 1375 DPS. 

As for Armor Piercing, how do you claim it increases damage?  It can prevent reduction of damage, but there is no mechanic in the game for it to increase the power of a shot.


Finally, I did a couple of tests.  On 10/10, two Mk I Enclaves were unable to hold back the very first wave of the game.  I tried a dozen times, and it failed every time against a bunch of different waves.
A full cap of Mk I Sniper turrets defeated every wave that wasn't sniper immune.