The Future of the Enclave Starship

[Hearteater]

In a brainstorming thread the issues of the Enclave Starship being a balance issue (OP in an unfun way) came up. If you've got thoughts and want to weigh in, here is a separate place. I'll start off by copying in my comments from that thread:

I just want to throw this out there on Starships: The Neinzul Enclave Starship is so powerful it completely negates a player's choice of bonus ship (the Enclave SS puts out more damage while begin 100% safe from all damage) as well as hull bonus considerations in the early game thanks to free drones that conveniently deal with nearly all hull types as if not more effectively than your regular fleet ships. I'm currently holding off 10/10 waves using just Mark I & II Enclaves + Spider Turrets. Just toss in some Tractors and Gravity Turrets for cannon fodder and to slow down the wave until all their engines are destroyed and you're done. There is no reason to waste my regular fleet ships.

As for action to be taken, I feel like the drone assortment needs to go. It is near-perfect in all cases. I could stand to have it so we pick one drone type when a Enclave is built and that becomes the only one it can build* (think metamorphosis like SC1 Mutalisk into Guardian OR Devourer). Then at least I get good cases and bad cases. The second issue is it needs to have a "cooldown" period. An easy approach would be build points built up over time. But probably easier would just be having it spend its own health to produce drones, cannot be repaired, and stops producing drones at 25% health until it reaches at least 75%. Have it not produce drones unless it is on FRD (or Attack) orders so we can control its health expenditure better.

EDIT: * By this I mean you build the Enclave and it has one Build button per drone type. Clicking on that button changes the Enclave (instantly, or with a build time, whatever) into a "new" Enclave that only produces that one type of drone. This way we don't have 4+ Enclave Starships to choose from on the Starship Constructor.

[Lord Of Nothing]

My thoughts:
Other options:
Defensive balance:
Give the drones immunity to speed boost, so they're not double speed on your planets?
Cap their attack boost?
Offensive balance:
Increase the metal value of drones, to increase reprisal intensity from using them a lot to something meaningful?

Some of all this might also apply to the combat carrier, but that should probably be a little more favoured balance wise as it's a bonus ship.

Responses:
For the cooldown issue, I would lean towards build points over time, as this seems less... well, artificial, and can be balanced separately from survivability.

With regards to the drone types, I'm not sure whether this solves the problem or not- if the amount of drones is the same, why not just have one enclave of each type, and sidestep the issue at the cost of micro? On ultra-low caps 1HW, you can't do this without unlocking more, as I think you only get 2 per homeworld, but in an other case you can mix and match- and if one type of ship in particular is the problem, this could end up buffing enclaves. Maybe one drone type should outright go?

[TechSY730]

What about the "obvious" nerfs? Reducing how fast drones can spawn (to like 1/3 or 1/4 of their current rate or something), and additionally nerfing the drones' lifetime and maybe their DPS too?

Basically, the goal is to make it such that drones (collectively) become just barely competent at roles, meaning even a full cap of Mk. I through V enclaves wouldn't be able to obsolete a Mk. I, II, and half of Mk. III fleet, and unsupported enclaves (even the full cap of Mk. I through V case) wouldn't be effective unsupported against all but small-mid size amount of Mk. I fleet ships.

Similar nerfs should happen for that bonus enclave ship that has a different set of drones.


Unlock costs and build costs would likely need to come down in this case, to keep their cost-effectiveness from tanking to the point of "no-one will use it until they have nothing left to build" territory.

EDIT: Just a note, the current enclave starship already uses the build point mechanic, but the build point cost is low and it can't stock up more than one "deployment cost" of build points, so the build point system is really just the way the game is pacing the spawns at the moment.

[Aklyon]

Wouldn't this effect the Combat Carrier too?

Also Roaming enclaves, unless those are a seperate ship type.

As for those suggestions (despite me not understanding the 'unfun' part, I like playing with drones in general; the op part I can see though.), building up build points would be much better than using its health. Health use works better on something like the regen golem, where you have a lot of health to spare (and therefore time to see when your ship needs to fall back with haste) and won't just be obliterated instantly if it gets attacked by more than a few ships while its casting from hp.

Also as a side note, enclave starships and combat carriers are rather expensive in energy at the beginning of the game, being somewhere around 15k energy each or so (along with the extra energy drones use while they're alive), and on low caps you only get 2 per mark (I don't think it scales with ship caps though?). You can make a lot of fleetships for that much, fleetships that you can use for something regardless of if there are AI ships to trigger a drone wave or not.

What about the "obvious" nerfs? Reducing how fast drones can spawn (to like 1/3 or 1/4 of their current rate or something), and additionally nerfing the drones' lifetime and maybe their DPS too?

Basically, the goal is to make it such that drones (collectively) become just barely competent at roles, meaning even a full cap of Mk. I through V enclaves wouldn't be able to obsolete a Mk. I, II, and half of Mk. III fleet, and unsupported enclaves (even the full cap of Mk. I through V case) wouldn't be effective unsupported against all but small-mid size amount of Mk. I fleet ships.

How would this compare to a full cap of other starships, or things like TDLs or Lightning torpedo frigates? A small amount of MkI ships at a full unsupported cap sounds rather ineffective for the amount of knowledge (and finding a core enclave fab, if that exists) required.

[TechSY730]

What about the "obvious" nerfs? Reducing how fast drones can spawn (to like 1/3 or 1/4 of their current rate or something), and additionally nerfing the drones' lifetime and maybe their DPS too?

Basically, the goal is to make it such that drones (collectively) become just barely competent at roles, meaning even a full cap of Mk. I through V enclaves wouldn't be able to obsolete a Mk. I, II, and half of Mk. III fleet, and unsupported enclaves (even the full cap of Mk. I through V case) wouldn't be effective unsupported against all but small-mid size amount of Mk. I fleet ships.

How would this compare to a full cap of other starships, or things like TDLs or Lightning torpedo frigates? A small amount of MkI ships at a full unsupported cap sounds rather ineffective for the amount of knowledge (and finding a core enclave fab, if that exists) required.

OK, I may have overstated that second part, but my argument about the first part still stands. The point is that a cap of Enclave starships should not obsolete a roughly cost equivalent cap of fleet ships any more than existing starships (no more, no less, roughly). Right now, Enclave starships, with only a bit of investment, most certainly do obsolete an equivalent cost of fleet ships. Not just due to their DPS and cost efficiency, but also by their nature as a spawner of free weaker ships.

I am also arguing is that Enclave starships may require special attention balance wise compared to other starships due to the drones' semi-overlap in role and "impact to the battlefield" to fleet ships.

[Aklyon]

Ah. That makes more sense.

[Wingflier]

[Toranth]

In a brainstorming thread the issues of the Enclave Starship being a balance issue (OP in an unfun way) came up. If you've got thoughts and want to weigh in, here is a separate place. I'll start off by copying in my comments from that thread:

I just want to throw this out there on Starships: The Neinzul Enclave Starship is so powerful it completely negates a player's choice of bonus ship (the Enclave SS puts out more damage while begin 100% safe from all damage) as well as hull bonus considerations in the early game thanks to free drones that conveniently deal with nearly all hull types as if not more effectively than your regular fleet ships. I'm currently holding off 10/10 waves using just Mark I & II Enclaves + Spider Turrets. Just toss in some Tractors and Gravity Turrets for cannon fodder and to slow down the wave until all their engines are destroyed and you're done. There is no reason to waste my regular fleet ships.

Enclave Starships provide an economic advantage, because they require no resources to produce the drones - but combat wise, they provide some of the least DPS of all starships (which is already low compared to fleetships).  Let me grab from an earlier post about this topic...

Starship DPS:

Starship	DPS
Flagship	300
Bomber	1350
Leech	396
Raid	341
Plasma	1000
Spire	3200
Zenith	718
Enclave	220
NCC	702

I think the Heavy Beam Drones have been mildly nerfed since then, but this table was post-Beam bug fix (so 1 shot only).

Also Roaming enclaves, unless those are a seperate ship type.

Yeah, those work like the Hive Golem, building up a store of point to dump all at once.  It would be an interesting change to the Enclaves to make player-owned versions work that way as well, but you'd need to balance the BP regeneration rate with the BP cap.  Right now, at 1 point per second and a spawn every 7 seconds, you seem to think it is too high.
But a cap of 100 points would still take only 100 seconds to get to, and how many spawns should it trigger?  Current is 8/7, so 100 seconds would spawn 112-ish drones all at once.

[Cinth]

I just want to throw this out there on Starships: The Neinzul Enclave Starship is so powerful it completely negates a player's choice of bonus ship (the Enclave SS puts out more damage while begin 100% safe from all damage) as well as hull bonus considerations in the early game thanks to free drones that conveniently deal with nearly all hull types as if not more effectively than your regular fleet ships. I'm currently holding off 10/10 waves using just Mark I & II Enclaves + Spider Turrets. Just toss in some Tractors and Gravity Turrets for cannon fodder and to slow down the wave until all their engines are destroyed and you're done. There is no reason to waste my regular fleet ships.

Just going to point out that you can get the same results using anything that would generally out range the AI ships in that situation.  Hell, even attritioners would cover it.

And going to ask if you are even pointing fingers at the other drone spawners?  CC, LTF, Champs, and mod forts?
If not, then why?  What is it that makes them sit in a better spot?

[Hearteater]

But can you start the game with all those other things that out range Missile Frigates? Can you argue that there is a more optimal starting build than Enclave Starships backed up with turrets? They are amazing on defense AND offense. They also can't get caught out like other Starships. I successfully destroyed a Fortress with drones before the 30 minute mark. Actually, I took out everything in the system except for the CS because it was under a Core FF. While doing that I defeated 4 waves. For both operations I did not touch my fleet ships. That is pretty ridiculous.

As for other drone ships, I don't care that they produce drones. I care what their impact is. Can you take fortified systems and defeat waves on 10/10 with just TDLs backed up by turrets? Then they might need some work. Or not. At least they are a bonus ship, unlike the Enclave.  CC and LTF are again, both bonus ships. But at least TDL can run into stuff with immunities. Nothing is immune to drones (especially the mixed pack of drones). CC might have similar problems to the Enclave, I haven't tried it out.  If Missile Frigate AOE immunity (or other immunities) apply to the LTF then that's at least something as well.

Mod Forts are defensive and not mobile so I'm less concerned about them.

Champs are an entirely different animal and not comparable except to themselves.

[Cinth]

But can you start the game with all those other things that out range Missile Frigates? Can you argue that there is a more optimal starting build than Enclave Starships backed up with turrets? They are amazing on defense AND offense. They also can't get caught out like other Starships. I successfully destroyed a Fortress with drones before the 30 minute mark. Actually, I took out everything in the system except for the CS because it was under a Core FF. While doing that I defeated 4 waves. For both operations I did not touch my fleet ships. That is pretty ridiculous.

As for other drone ships, I don't care that they produce drones. I care what their impact is. Can you take fortified systems and defeat waves on 10/10 with just TDLs backed up by turrets? Then they might need some work. Or not. At least they are a bonus ship, unlike the Enclave.  CC and LTF are again, both bonus ships. But at least TDL can run into stuff with immunities. Nothing is immune to drones (especially the mixed pack of drones). CC might have similar problems to the Enclave, I haven't tried it out.  If Missile Frigate AOE immunity (or other immunities) apply to the LTF then that's at least something as well.

Mod Forts are defensive and not mobile so I'm less concerned about them.

Champs are an entirely different animal and not comparable except to themselves.

I can and do start every game with a collection of ships that can out range Missile Frigates.  I'd venture any collection of turrets carefully placed could have the same effect.  Your specific example called on spider, tractor and grav turrets which on their own contribute greatly to stopping waves.  Adding in any ship that out ranges your targets would have the same effect.

You really can't look at drones in a vacuum.  You need to see what they actually do on the whole. And not all drones are created equally.  Tackle Drones I did not include simply because they do have drawbacks (Slicer Drones do as well).  All drones except for Tackle and Slicer have generally the same attack style (the excluded are melee and melee/suicide).  They all act like your fleet ships in that they will shoot at everything en route to their target.  They also fill the AI target lists with meaningless filler that act as a smoke screen for your other units (though this effect has been toned down greatly). Third, they produce limitless amounts of drones.  These properties are in effect anytime the launchers are in combat. 

Personally, I don't think the damage is out of line (look how many drones it takes to take out anything heavy).  They act more like attritioners in a figurative sense.  In that vein of thought, they are okish against anything that matters.  Run them up against any Exo wave.  They aren't the all inclusive answer.

Actually...you can make a potent Dock Cannon with younglings and a midling econ that is even more potent and just as infinitely sustainable.

[TechSY730]

I guess the first thing to figure out are why neinzul enclaves are OP. Their raw numbers alone don't seem to imply they should be.

The only thing that seems that seem to come around are:
-An effective bonus against most hull types thanks to drone variety (though since there are multiple drones with different bonuses, not all the DPS per "round" gets that bonus, reducing the actual impact of the magnitude of their bonuses)
-Their effectively long range due to drones' moderately long lifetime and high move speed
-As drones are separate units, they can "distract" units, or at least bait their alpha strike

Are these advantages so great that even the current low DPS of the enclave (by starship standards) is too high? If so, should the DPS be further lowered, these advantages be reduced in effect, or some combination of both? Or (yet another) complete re-imagining of the enclave starships?

[Draco18s]

I think if drone lifetimes were doubled and their spawnrate halved that might be a good direction to look (possibly also halving their speed).  As then kills on them would actually have a meaningful impact other than "eh, it was going to die anyway."

[Toranth]

-Their effectively long range due to drones' moderately long lifetime and high move speed
-As drones are separate units, they can "distract" units, or at least bait their alpha strike

These are the two factors I think matter, plus the economic fact that the drones are free.
Remember, the Enclave Starship is much like a MSD - only drones die faster, move slower, are weaker, and cannot cross wormholes (but are free).

It would be an interesting experiment to try settings the drones to all have a 1 damage attack with a 30 second reload or something, just to see how helpful the "clutter" factor is in supporting a regular fleet.


The range is useful because, like Zombards or Blade Spawners, you can sit outside of a non-mobile enemy's range and still attack continuously.  Unfortunately I don't see any way to nerf this (reduce drone speed, or faster self-attrition) that isn't either too little (if the Enclave can still outrange most targets) or too much (An enclave in range of a Fortress or GP is toast).

[Hearteater]

Their Radar Dampening, although fairly large (which is bad for Radar Dampening) also contributes to their safety. Is it still relevant?

I do like the thought of longer lifespan, less spawns. I haven't yet had the AI kill drones fast enough to save themselves.

On drone stats:
Laser Drone vs Fighter (both do bonus against Polycrystal): -40% DPS (18/3 vs 40/4), -76% Health (400 vs 1650), +56% Range (5000 vs 3200), +7% Speed (90 vs 84), -100% Armor (0 vs 2), +1 hull multipliers (4 vs 3), -1 multipliers (x5 vs x6)

That seems pretty beefy for something popping out at effectively one/second. In particular, what is up with that massive range advantage? All the drones have great ranges. Do they really need that?

Also, I just cleared a homeworld adjacent planet with 124 AI ships with a single Mark I Enclave. I moved it into the system and did not touch another thing. It killed everything automatically. The Enclave dropped to 68% health while its drones cleared out the ships near the wormhole, but after that it never took additional damage. This was on 10/10 so I had a fair smattering of Mark II enemy ships.