The future of Champions

[Wingflier]

My biggest beef with Champions is not the nebula scenarios, not the nemesis spawns, not the unbalanced nature of the upgrades, not the free awesome Fortress defenses or the sick force multipliers you get with all the extra minor faction units; my problem is that the "abilities" system is so uninspired.

Placing a shield every few seconds is not enjoyable.

I was talking to RCIX about this, but the champion abilities system could be a lot more interesting and varied than it is now. It could be broken down into factions which would give each faction "ability" upgrades which made sense lore-wise.

So for example, it might look like this:

             
    Powerful shield                       Swarm Host                             Black hole device           Dark Fleet Beacon
              ^                                          ^                                                 ^                                    ^
              |                                            |                                                  |                                     |
AoE munitions booster               Repair platform                             Attritioner                Tachyon pulse emitter
              ^                                          ^                                                 ^                                    ^
              |                                            |                                                  |                                     |
 Small missile platform       Mobile regeneration chamber              Gravity device               Beam platform
              ^                                          ^                                                 ^                                    ^
              |                                            |                                                  |                                     |
        Human                                 Neinzul                                         Zenith                             Spire
   

Sorry for any formatting errors but this is the best I can do using the forums.

Here's a brief idea of what the skills do:

Small missile platform: Small, stationary, spammable platforms that are cheap (on Champion energy) and good at taking out hordes of small enemies.
Mobile regeneration chamber: Neinzul regen chamber except a champion can place it, good for Neinzul strategies.
Swarm Host: (Shameless SC2 steal) Creates an endless supply of drones for a small period of time.
Gravity device: Slows down gravity for enemy units in a large area.
Attritioner: Attritions enemies in a large area.
Black hole device: Creates a temporary wormhole from one part of the galaxy to another that can be used by your fleet. (Certain limitations apply)
Beam platform: Stationary beam platforms good against bigger stuff.
Tachyon pulse emitter: Can reveal cloaked units in a large area, also cloaks your own units within the radius.
Dark Fleet Beacon: Weak beacon, causes all AI ships on the planet (and surrounding planets) to become hostile, and causes Special Forces to attack you as well. If protected for several minutes summons an uncontrollable Spire Fleet to assist you.

Anyway, you get the idea.  The point is that "abilities" get a skill tree just like in an actual RPG. The lower on the tree, the less expensive the abilities are to unlock. The higher on the tree, the better, but the more expensive to unlock and use.

Abilities for certain races could only be used by that race's "Champion Starship".  There are also some cool things you could do like "synergized" abilities, so for example, if I unlocked the tier 2 ability for the Humans and the Spire I might get a "free" ability that either the Human or Spire ship could used called an "Advanced Weapons Platform" that has the missiles and the beams.

For me at least, a more inspired "ability system" such as this would make the Champions worth using. Sure, the "nebula system" could be more interesting, but in the end you do spend a significant amount of time waiting for stuff to rebuild and such, so I don't mind those, it's like a "mini-game" to me.  What bothers me the most is that "using" a champion boils down to just spamming a shield ability over and over again.

Note: The ability concepts listed are just placeholders, I'm sure people in the community could come up with much more interesting ideas.

[TIE Viper]

That makes two of you

I like the nebulas too!  So that's at least three of us. 

I don't really mind some of the early nebula grindyness given the awesome relatively fast mini-fleet you get after finishing the nebulas.  Aside from more scenarios, I also liked a lot of the ideas I was reading about.  More champion abilities sound good, and the relic cashes especially seem well thought out.  I certainly don't want the nebulas to go away. 

[Wingflier]

That makes two of you

I like the nebulas too!  So that's at least three of us. 

I don't really mind some of the early nebula grindyness given the awesome relatively fast mini-fleet you get after finishing the nebulas.  Aside from more scenarios, I also liked a lot of the ideas I was reading about.  More champion abilities sound good, and the relic cashes especially seem well thought out.  I certainly don't want the nebulas to go away.

I think the majority of the people in the thread have expressed their like, or at least acceptance of the champion nebula scenarios. Personally, I think they are a minor annoyance, as opposed to the main problem.

[TIE Viper]

Upon thinking some more about it, at least for me, the grindy feeling really depends on how the nebulas order themselves in a play through.  I would say unless you get an order that is just right, you will be put in a nebula scenario or two with a hull size 1 smaller than would be preferred.  When that happens is when it gets grindy feeling because with your smaller hull size you can't make enough of a difference in that particular scenario and consequently it gets drawn out a lot.  An example of this is to compare how long it takes to finish your first nebula if you get the 3 way FFA or if your first one is the Dyson Gatling one.

I actually think the Dyson Gatling is a very good nebula to start off with (the best one of our current selections) for several reasons.  The most important of which is that the 'do good' condition is get over a certain number of kill shots on the enemy.  This IMO allows the player a reasonably good chance to do well despite having only the frigate.  This one is the only scenario where this is true with exception to the Neinzul Mourners prison scenario but to a much lesser extent.  While I don't know the actual numbers, it feels like it's much harder to meet the 'do well' criteria with a frigate hull than a destroyer.  The first EER isn't bad but isn't great in that respect although this one feels about right for a destroyer hull.  And finally the FFA seems nigh on impossible to meet the 'do well' criteria with only a frigate hull.

I really don't mind the big vicious slug fests you get with the FFA, the Ravenous Shadow, etc. but only when I'm preferably a cruiser so I can slug back without having to leave and repair after 30 seconds of actual combat.  That is what makes these grindy and take forever since we don't have more direct control over how our ally ships fight. 

I think part of what is needed is more early level scenarios like the Dyson Gatling one that allow players to level up their hull sizes and module unlocks in a non intensively time consuming fashion so the later bigger nebula battles aren't so punishing. 

I also think that the relic cashes and more champion abilities ideas, etc. are part of what is needed because they will make champions more appealing to champ only players as well as offer variety and more than the one alternative we already have to leveling up via nebulas.  Those additions would (I'm guessing) be less labor intensive to implement and be a step in the right direction towards what most everyone wants till the time comes when more work can be devoted to creating more nebulas.

EDIT: Also worth mentioning is continuing to keep the nemesis response balanced well is an important part of what is needed IMO as well.

I know that many, myself included, are asking (and have been for a while, albeit more noticeably and all at the same time, recently) for more scenarios and that they are very labor intensive to make but I am also willing to pay expansion prices for more champion content.  I like where they started and don't want to completely forget that part of it but I want champions to stay fun too!

[keith.lamothe]

I actually think the Dyson Gatling is a very good nebula to start off with (the best one of our current selections) for several reasons.  The most important of which is that the 'do good' condition is get over a certain number of kill shots on the enemy.

Just to clarify: it doesn't matter who lands the kill shots on those gatlings (you or your allies), just how many die

[TIE Viper]

I thought how many spawn was a predetermined number.  So basically the more you kill/get killed, the more get spawned? 

EDIT: And also, the above clarification doesn't change my opinion about that scenario.

[keith.lamothe]

I thought how many spawn was a predetermined number.  So basically the more you kill/get killed, the more get spawned?

Yep   Until the timer runs out.

[TIE Viper]

--- Though after all those FS shard recoveries I doubt anyone's looking for more escort missions

BTW I think you got that right.   

Although I don't think I would mind perhaps one more escort mission for a champion scenario, nebula or normal space.

[Aklyon]

The relic caches seem like quite the good idea.

[Tridus]

I actually think the Dyson Gatling is a very good nebula to start off with (the best one of our current selections) for several reasons.  The most important of which is that the 'do good' condition is get over a certain number of kill shots on the enemy.  This IMO allows the player a reasonably good chance to do well despite having only the frigate.  This one is the only scenario where this is true with exception to the Neinzul Mourners prison scenario but to a much lesser extent.  While I don't know the actual numbers, it feels like it's much harder to meet the 'do well' criteria with a frigate hull than a destroyer.  The first EER isn't bad but isn't great in that respect although this one feels about right for a destroyer hull.  And finally the FFA seems nigh on impossible to meet the 'do well' criteria with only a frigate hull.

I really don't mind the big vicious slug fests you get with the FFA, the Ravenous Shadow, etc. but only when I'm preferably a cruiser so I can slug back without having to leave and repair after 30 seconds of actual combat.  That is what makes these grindy and take forever since we don't have more direct control over how our ally ships fight. 

I think part of what is needed is more early level scenarios like the Dyson Gatling one that allow players to level up their hull sizes and module unlocks in a non intensively time consuming fashion so the later bigger nebula battles aren't so punishing. 

I'd agree with all this stuff too.   The single biggest problem with nebula secnarios is when you get into one that drags out a very long time, and that tends to happen if you get into one of the large battle ones with a small hull. If those were deferred until larger hulls in favor of shorter scenarios, it'd really smooth things out a lot.

[TIE Viper]

The Dyson Gatling nebula was actually the first one I got playing Ancient Shadows for the first time.   

This post promoted me from Newbie Mark III to Jr. Member.  Woot!

[Mick]

The Dyson Gatling nebula was actually the first one I got playing Ancient Shadows for the first time.   

That sounds fortunate. My first few attempts with it got three way war, which from what I read from others is one of the worst you can start with.

I wonder how much peoples' impressions of nebulae come from which ones they end up getting first.

[TIE Viper]

Yeah, I definitely think that one is the worst to start off with too.  I would guess many people's nebula impressions are significantly tied up with which scenario you got first.

Controlling Fleet Ships
Default control of allies would be great.  But even more awesome would be an easy way to take control of allied ships permanently (switching them to your player color and allowing the original owner to replace them as them as they aren't counted against his ship cap).  Each Champion would have a Command value which was the maximum number of ships he can control (might need to be scaled off original ship type cap so high cap ships don't get the short end).  Maybe something small like 5-10 to start, but probably improvable via the talent tree or just leveling to eventually one full cap of normal ships.  That would give the Champion player the feeling of being the leader of a small elite squad going out to achieve some objective.

I like this idea a lot as well.

A note I just thought of about repetition:
In general I don't think most players mind repetition even if they think they do.  It's not really the repetition in most cases but how our actions are required to be performed that alleviate the feeling of repetitiveness.  After all, playing this game we are always repeating the steps of destroying guard posts, command centers, assaulting the HWs, etc.  But the way we do that is different each time which is one of the reasons why procedurally generated games like the Binding of Issac and this one can be so appealing.  True exact repetitiveness isn't a problem per se and can still be fun.  Replaying Super Mario, Metroid, Sonic, Zelda, MegaMan, Final Fantasy whatever, or whatever your preferences are and so on is still fun despite the gameplay being exactly the same as before.  The difference here with the nebula scenarios is that yes, they are more exactly repetitive than normal space gameplay,  there isn't a high enough number of them to distract us from the repetitive feelings, so obviously those feelings stand out more when we think of the nebulae.  Think about it.  If we fast forward to a future where we have a randomized pool of 20 nebula scenarios as opposed to only 9, would the more repetitive nature of the nebulae affect us the same way as it does now?

[KDR_11k]

The champion is not interactive enough currently. I mean what do you do with it? You can sometimes use a special ability and otherwise just move around, occasionally telling your guns to focus on one target. There's very little to using the thing, especially when you don't have the greater strategic layer of normal space (where you at least have to decide between things like raiding a planet, helping with defense, etc). Some nebulas are especially problematic, e.g. the Ravenous Shadow which is little more than "rightclick on the thing and pray" or the colony bombs which are so fast that you have no ability to respond, just ignore them, shoot the bases and pray that the bombs don't do enough damage. With 2+ champs you can at least split your strength between offense and defense or defend against multiple directions of bombs but solo you are too slow to react to anything, you input your actions and hope the situation remains the way you expected.

I find even games like SPAZ too low on the interactivity since again there's so little to do in them. A good example would be Starsector (formerly Starfarer), in that game you have more options than just calling priority targets and moving around, you also have directional shields that you don't always want online either, you have different firing arcs, locational damage, some low ammo weapons that need to be timed right, many of the more dangerous attacks can be dodged and now ships even have a built-in special ability.

[TechSY730]

I'd be happy with:

• more nebula missions and mission types
• improve balance of existing nebulas
• way(s) to gain unlocks outside of nebulae, even if they were secondary in effectiveness to nebulae. Prefereable, this other way would be more "integrated" into the main goal of taking out the AI
• way(s) to gain noticable experience outside of nebulae, even if they were secondary in effectiveness to nebulae. Prefereable, this other way would be more "integrated" into the main goal of taking out the AI (someone mentioned that starships and now also guardians (and higher tiers as well) are really tough enough to put up a good fight against champs, so it seems fair that they would give some exp too. Also, can the exp gain for guard posts and command stations go up a bit?)
• some way to avoid the "tyranny of the RNG" when it comes to unlocks, especially hull and module unlocks that don't work well together (a somewhat common occurrence that can really hurt the effectiveness of the champion by no fault of your own)
• some sort of "respec" system
• more active abilities
• better balance of existing active abilities

Yes, not trivial by any means, but doesn't require "ditching" huge amounts of stuff already in the game, and wouldn't require a whole "expansions worth" of work. Also, it still keeps the current system, mostly, but just expands on it.
Something like unlock trees and a "fallen spire, but with champions" type thing would be cool too, but that seems like it would take too much more work than is reasonably worth to consider at this time.