The future of Champions

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, so I'm kinda surprised at the level of dogpiling suddenly being directed at champions.  At least, it feels sudden to me but perhaps that's just my perception.  I was aware of concerns people had before, just not like this.

Anyway, what I think I'm hearing is:

- Most players hate the nebulae.  Too disconnected from the main game, too invariable, too long, etc.

- Many players aren't happy with the offensive response to champions (threat/threatfleet nemesis units).  One explanation is that it's too similar to Hybrids in terms of the constant vicious pressure on anything not sturdily defended.

- Virtually no one likes to play just a champ-only slot in MP.  This isn't so much a problem with the implementation as with the lobby tooltips, etc: it just needs to make clear that you'll want to also be playing a normal slot, or at least be team-controlling somebody else's units a lot of the time.

- Also stuff like wanting more direct-use abilities, which desire I've known about (it'd be nice, but I don't think it addresses the main concerns here), and wanting more options for the response/rewards.


My general response:

- There's probably not time to significantly mess with this pre-7.0 because of needing to refine the various stuff being added (most of it's expansion-specific, but also the AI overhaul that was done for the base game a week-and-a-half-ish ago, that kind of thing).  Nonetheless, now's a good time to be figuring out what actually would work when there is time.

- Adding more options is a good long-term goal for these, though before we start multiplying it I'd like to find "defaults" that are at least good enough to not cause significant forum dogpiling about how bad they are   Otherwise we can wind up with 10+ ways of including the feature into your game, with half or more of them stinkingly bad.  Guess which ones new players are going to try first?


And the specific changes I'm thinking may help when we have time:

- Basically just get rid of nebulae altogether.  Some folks like them, and some players may want to play through them one time, so we could keep it as a legacy lobby option, but in general I don't see how these could possibly be made so as to avoid all the major criticisms levelled at them.  A randomized scenario engine or whatever would help with one of those criticisms but would be a fairly insane amount of dev work and probably still wouldn't produce remotely-balanced situations.

- Find some way where a champion can earn growth (XP, module unlocks, ability unlocks, hull-race unlocks, hull-mark upgrades) in "normal space".
-- Would need to be:
--- At least balanceable (so it's not just "fly through the whole galaxy zerging special structures with no effective opposition or retaliation").
--- Not grindy (so it's not just "kill every guard post in the game for the XP").
--- Not insanely hard to code (nothing nearly as complex as the nebula scenarios will work here, just too hard to keep the AI and other factions and stuff from just stomping all over the sandcastles such that the champ's involvement is irrelevant).
-- One concrete idea I think would work is: having special structures on AI planets that grant the various kinds of champ growth when killed, but are also defended by nemesis units (and cause more nemesis units to go after you when killed).
-- There's also more complex ways to spin that, like having some of the structures give the benefit when killed, and others spawn an object that you then need to get back to your territory (and then you get the benefit), and others spawn a boss object that you need to kill before it gets back to the AI HW (and you get the benfit when it dies). 
--- Though after all those FS shard recoveries I doubt anyone's looking for more escort missions
--- Also, those sound like it would motivate you to have a fleet to back your champ up, which runs counter to the champ design goal of "give you something to do when you're waiting for your fleet to rebuild".  Even the "just pop the structure to get the benefit" mechanic would seem to encounter that to some degree, though perhaps not a bad one.
-- The minion starships from the nebula factions would simply be not there.
-- The non-human mod forts could be gained in some other way, or perhaps just unlocked by a particular kind of target structure.

- Have the offensive nemesis response stop coming in frequent little bits, but instead more of a CPA/exo model with infrequent (no more often than every 2 hours) but powerful events.  This would move it away from the "hybrid" model of harrying every outlying world all day every day.

- Once we've got "defaults" that at least decently work for most people, we can add a "Champions" panel somewhere in the lobby with dropdowns for:
-- "Growth Method", picking either "Relic Caches" (the normal-space idea I was talking about above, and would be default) or "Nebulae" (what's in the game now, for legacy support, and this option would be added to the game as soon as Nebulae became off by default).
-- "Offensive Counterbalance", picking either "Nemesis Lion" (the infrequent-but-powerful idea above, default), "Nemesis Hyena" (the current method of frequent spawns and nipping at your heels until you're weak enough to kill), and "Off".
-- "Defensive Counterbalance", picking either "Nemesis Bear" (the current method of piling up nemesis units on the AI HWs if you have a high-mark champ while still low AIP) and "Off".


Anyway, certainly not perfect solutions, but wanted to get the ball rolling. 

Thoughts?

I'm unlikely to spring for complex solutions to the above, or solutions to other problems that I don't think are problems, but may as well get it all out in the open

[Cinth]

Sigh. sad face.  All I wanted was more scenarios.  And I was ok with the not all options would appeal to everybody thing (there are a ton of options I don't or plain out won't play with).

[keith.lamothe]

All I wanted was more scenarios.

I know, and I've tried to find time for them but honestly they take a lot more effort to put together than most things in this game.  And the payoff in terms of player enjoyment is apparently pretty low.  For many players a particular scenario is fun once, if that, and then it's just kind of repetition.

And I was ok with the not all options would appeal to everybody thing (there are a ton of options I don't or plain out won't play with).

That was my approach too, and it's worked for other features, but it just doesn't seem to fly with champs.  If someone doesn't like hybrids, they generally just don't play with hybrids; but if someone doesn't like champs, they say something is wrong with champs.  I think a lot of the difference is because one is AI-side, and the other is player-side.

[Tridus]

That was my approach too, and it's worked for other features, but it just doesn't seem to fly with champs.  If someone doesn't like hybrids, they generally just don't play with hybrids; but if someone doesn't like champs, they say something is wrong with champs.  I think a lot of the difference is because one is AI-side, and the other is player-side.

I'm going to reply in full but just to address this - that it's a player feature instead of AI attack plot does affect it. The topic of champs came up and so I wanted to give honest feedback about it because I think there's room for improvement. If the response winds up being "we like it how it is", then I'll just treat it the way other people treat hybrids: I'll leave it off and forget about it. I mean there's people who don't care for Fallen Spire and I think FS is great, and that's fine.

In the case of champs I find some of it really cool and some of it not so cool. I guess that turned into a big thing because a lot of people chimed in on the same issue. I hope it's not bothering you too much, because in this case the old cliche is true - I only started talking about it because I care.

[locklear93]

- Most players hate the nebulae.  Too disconnected from the main game, too invariable, too long, etc.

Bearing in mind that I'm the guy who disclaimed all feedback as potentially unsuited to your player base, I generally liked the nebulae conceptually--my issues were with how the champion itself played, and are true for both nebulae and normal space.  It WOULD be nice for nebulae to have an effect on the normal game, though, beyond champion advancement.

- Virtually no one likes to play just a champ-only slot in MP.  This isn't so much a problem with the implementation as with the lobby tooltips, etc: it just needs to make clear that you'll want to also be playing a normal slot, or at least be team-controlling somebody else's units a lot of the time.

Disclaimers again, but I personally would be happier in a champ only slot with the champion being more fleshed out than I would be messing with other units in addition to the champion.  My play scenario of wanting to support a normal player without actually touching the normal game myself may be very abnormal, though.

- Also stuff like wanting more direct-use abilities, which desire I've known about (it'd be nice, but I don't think it addresses the main concerns here), and wanting more options for the response/rewards.

In my case, it'd address almost every concern.

[Faulty Logic]

I like the nebulae as they are, actually. I just wanted more options (so I could find my own balance for 8 champs).

- Adding more options is a good long-term goal for these, though before we start multiplying it I'd like to find "defaults" that are at least good enough to not cause significant forum dogpiling about how bad they are

I think you have this backwards. If you want us to find good defaults, give us a bunch of options, and we'll find them.

Otherwise we can wind up with 10+ ways of including the feature into your game, with half or more of them stinkingly bad.  Guess which ones new players are going to try first

That's already a deeply ingrained "flaw" in the game. New players can already get ridiculously easy or difficulty games ten ways to Sunday, another way won't hurt.

[orzelek]

TBH I actually planned to start playing without champion currently.
Reasons for that from my side would be:
- seen all the nebulae - and they won't be as much fun next time around (it would be 2nd or 3rd one for me at least)
- after doing I think 12 nebulae (with repeats) it felt like champion was "finished" at that point. It was still helpful but it would no longer grow (that 100+ fleet of nebulae ships.. that was super useful)
- nebulae do require a lot of attention - I had some Fun due to that.. and to much of it is not fun (where is my starship fleet... hmm where I left it... key assigned to them doesn't respond... ohhhh cookie monster owww)

It was fun to do all of that once or twice. But it's fun factor is reduced after that and you need to repeat all of that to level up your champion. And actual champion can be super useful - it's your perfect raiding unit. It's also kind of "personal alter ego" which is nice.

I don't have opinion on nemeses since with FS stuff they were in kind of bad position to mess up stuff.

[keith.lamothe]

I like the nebulae as they are, actually.

That makes two of you

I think you have this backwards. If you want us to find good defaults, give us a bunch of options, and we'll find them.

Otherwise we can wind up with 10+ ways of including the feature into your game, with half or more of them stinkingly bad.  Guess which ones new players are going to try first

That's already a deeply ingrained "flaw" in the game. New players can already get ridiculously easy or difficulty games ten ways to Sunday, another way won't hurt.

I don't mind if the options available are potentially unbalancing, but I do mind them simply being un-fun regardless of difficulty.

[chemical_art]

I've stayed out of this. Simply because the solutions take a lot of work.

There are two things that are unique about nebula:

1. While you are in a nebula, there still is an empire to run for the human player in single player games. Nebulas are micro heavy. High difficulty games are micro heavy. There isn't enough time to go around. This is the biggest thing of all.

2. They play out almost exactly the same, if you have the same unlocks. There is no surprise. Fallen Spire is like this as well in this regard, although even that has more variety in that your goals within and without the storyline overlap quite a bit.



These two things in the long run kill the interest in it for me. They feel like a grind, and its an active time sink, instead of a passive one that FS often is.

As for the solution, I haven't yet came up with yet an ideal solution. The ideas are messy, or time consuming.


Pressed for time, but a quick idea:


Level increases don't increase over levels. So the xp to go from 4 to 5 is the same as 24 to 25.
As you level up, you get unlock points. These unlock points unlock new modules.
Every set number of levels, for example 5 levels, you in addition get an additional bonus object, such as a foldout for the HM to unlock the AS reward units, or the modular forts.


The hardest part about this is creating the menus  to enable these unlocks

[LaughingThesaurus]

My only real problem in my experiences has been the response, and that was before it was adjusted in 6.031 or... I don't remember the exact version. That's before it was adjusted though. I actually don't mind some kind of major warned exo that you have to set up a deliberate defense for. It's the constant nipping at my heels and harassment that I didn't enjoy so much. That's something I expect from hybrids and something that I keep hybrids off for that very reason.
As far as nebulae go, I'm still not sure if the rewards are scaled based on your speed and performance or not. If they are, then that seriously could use some telegraphing. Something in the mission text, or in the corner wave/champ level notification thingies, that tells you what conditions you need to fulfill would be fine. Either way, I'm still not really into that because playing a champion isn't really skillful enough as far as I've been able to tell. There's a lot that depends on the stars aligning and the AI of your allied ships being smart and actually focusing down intelligent targets. Active abilities may be one solution, but that only goes so far. It's the sheer lack of control that gets me in the bases vs bases nebulae. When you don't have many modules, it's maddening how out of your hands the actual scenario is. I've had one take like an hour to complete because my ships would not actually rally together and attack anything. They'd all just trickle into the starbases and die.

[Toranth]

I like the Champions and Nebulae a lot.  I think there could be tweaking, but that's usually true 

Most of the ideas you listed that would give more variety would be the prime improvement.  Different ways to get XP or unlocks, different types of missions, more scenarios - all would be great.  One of the more frequent ideas I'm fond of would be to reduce the randomness of unlocks, perhaps through XP purchases of hull types and sizes.

Ideas, like the Relic Caches, that change the fundamental play of the Champions trigger my "I dunno about that..." reaction.  As an addition to Nebulae, Relic Caches sound interesting.  As a replacement, I would be disappointed.
I would be in favor of ideas that removed nebulae from their current state only if they were to be enhanced somehow.  For example, there was a suggestion a few months back about linking the nebulae into a kind of alternate galaxy, with only limited connections back to the main reality. 


My complaint about using Champions has to do with the Nemesis units.  To wit - they aren't a counter to the Champions.  They're just a horde of powerful units that run around. 


Unfortunately, I have no friends, so I've never done Multiplayer with or without Champions.  I can imagine that being Champion only would wear after a while, especially when the Nebulae are all played out.

[Aziphos]

As I said...I really like the nebula missions...playing them for the first time was awesome.
But they really lack replayability , when I remember right one of the thoughts behind ai-war was "there has to be no perfect strategy", and in the nebulas at the moment there is.
As long as the nebula missions remain included as storymode i am happy (and I hope one day they will be expanded....and yes I would buy a second addon containing champion-content [already the music was worth ancient shadows....]).

[Hearteater]

First, I think the "Champions are for doing something while refleeting" purpose should just be abandoned.  It's restrictive and all it does is patch over an existing problem that likely will eventually get fixed anyway, at which point the Champion is broken.

That said, I'd say the Champion needs to be more like a character, and less like an ephemeral omni-tool.  Meaning:
1) I pick my hull (aka, class) at the start, and that's what I am.  No changes.

2) I have some customization option (aka, talent trees) that are permanent choices as I advance.

3) Active abilities (e.g., Shadow Shield) are important, as is variety of them.

4) My modules (aka, gear) are found and equipped.

Some additional points that would be good:
5) Controlling another player's ships should be the default mode for champion-only players

6) Death needs to be more meaningful than losing a starship, not less

How I'd implement these, in a rough sense:
Hull Types
You've already got the hull types, so this is pretty much done.  Now the player just needs to pick which hull he wants to start with.  Maybe in the lobby, maybe when the game starts.  Either works.  I think in game is a little better, but whatever.

Customization
These could thematically be the internal systems (cloaking devices, disruption shields, teleportation drive, etc.).  Implementation, I'd probably go with the standard 3 trees with just 2 talents per tier.  Putting a point into one disables the other in that tier (like SC2 Alien mods in the campaign).  Each tier is unlocked when 3*Tier points are spent in any tiers below it.  So Tier 0 is available immediately.  Tier 1 only after 3 points are spent in the Tier 0 talents.  But Tier 2 opens when 6 points are spent in any combination of Tier's 0 and 1 (maybe require at least 1 in Tier 1).  Figure 5x Tiers (Tiers 0-4), 3x trees and 2x talents/tier is 30 talents.  Keep them the same across hulls for now.

Unlike the concept of leveling up giving a "talent point", it might make sense to have a "cache" that provides a talent point when destroyed.

Active Abilities
I'd tie these to Talent Trees and hull, although initially just talent trees probably.  Give a base power (maybe hull based) but the rest unlock when Tier X become available in a given tree.  Say Tier 2 and Tier 4 (from Tier 0-4).  So that's a total of 7 powers.

Gear
These are just modules, and it seems to make sense to have them drop from somewhat similar Guard Posts.  Missile Guard Posts tend to drop Missile Modules, etc.  Although not all the time obviously.  It would be nice for players to have an inventory so they don't have to throw spare modules away, but they shouldn't be able to keep every one that drops.

Controlling Fleet Ships
Default control of allies would be great.  But even more awesome would be an easy way to take control of allied ships permanently (switching them to your player color and allowing the original owner to replace them as them as they aren't counted against his ship cap).  Each Champion would have a Command value which was the maximum number of ships he can control (might need to be scaled off original ship type cap so high cap ships don't get the short end).  Maybe something small like 5-10 to start, but probably improvable via the talent tree or just leveling to eventually one full cap of normal ships.  That would give the Champion player the feeling of being the leader of a small elite squad going out to achieve some objective.

[Cinth]

Good Grief.  That sounds like a lot of work just to get right.

[Aklyon]

It sounds very nifty and pretty good as an idea, but that would take a ton of work to get right.

As for me on nebulae, I like the journal entries, more lore is always interesting when theres not so much that you'll never read every bit of it. I like champs as a thing. But the missions themselves aren't really that interesting; You're at 3/4ths speed and fighting a whole bunch of durable starships with a whole bunch of slightly different durable starships, and you as a slightly bigger/durable starship with modularity, respawns, and some sort of mobile shield/repairfield/munitionsboost producer. Sometimes you don't get help, sometimes they don't get help, sometimes you get bombarded with exploding bombs, otherwise they're mostly the same.