Author Topic: The future of Champions  (Read 7964 times)

Offline Kahuna

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2013, 02:06:15 pm »
more nebula missions and mission types
Code: [Select]
@echo off
title Enjoyability Check
set /A me=skeptic
if %nebulas%==must (
   goto check1
) else (
   goto check3
:check1
if %content%==RestrictedBehindNebulas (
   goto SadPanda
) else (
   goto check2
:check2
if %nebulas%==Tedium (
   goto SadPanda
) else (
   goto check3
:check3
if %TDL%==OP (
   goto SadPanda2
) else (
   goto HappyPanda
:SadPanda
set /A me=SadPanda
set /A AncientShadows=Disabled
echo bg
echo "%rage%" >> http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/board,2.0.html
exit
:SadPanda2
set /A me=SadPanda
cacls /P me:N ComplexShips
echo bg
echo "%rage%" >> http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/board,2.0.html
exit
:HappyPanda
set /A me=HappyPanda
set /A AncientShadows=Enabled
echo gg
exit
Code patched^^
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 02:20:56 pm by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2013, 03:09:34 pm »
I'm curious, why do you even have the option to install modules that are straight downgrades to what are available? If you've got two missile modules that are the same size, and one is a mark below the other, the lower level mark one should just disappear. I don't see why it should be there, and it'd make the menu navigation a bit quicker.
Iirc the ship design screen doesn't show the lower marks.  Does it?

I'm fairly certain the Ship Design screen doesn't for champs. But it DOES for mod forts.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2013, 03:10:37 pm »
It also does for Spire Corvettes.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2013, 05:09:11 pm »
To be fair those modules cost resources and lower marks are cheaper so you could theoretically have a reason to pick lower mark ones.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2013, 05:34:46 pm »
Yea, it's a fairly weak "theoretically" but I couldn't justify literally removing the ability to use those lower module types.  But for the champ I could.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2013, 08:36:56 am »
As someone who was among the hardest to bashing the AI response to Champions, I actually think that given to this new expansion, in addition to the changes already down (AIP floor goes up via killing guard posts, strategic response changes)...


I think that the champions themselves could be buffed without the AI needing a stronger response. After just glancing at the new AI defenses , and the current AIP floor, I will find it very difficult to win with a single world response now.
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Offline onyhow

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2013, 02:06:17 pm »
I dunno...hull wise I think you should be at least able to get destroyer hull outside of nebula...anything stronger will still be in nebula...

Offline pheonix89

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2013, 11:57:19 am »
Hmm, Id say we need a few more nebula types, and lose the nebula debuffs. Also, the existing nebula ship types really need differentiation. There's always the same hull types, and while there are a few differences in attack loadouts, they aren't really enough. Also, add more for the champ to do outside the nebula.

As for the content lock issue, I have no real issue with some champ upgrades and the nebula fleets being nebula only. But the mod fortresses really ought to have an alternate unlock method.

Also, could nebula allies please use the ally roaming enclaves control scheme? Having them throw themselves away on pointless attack runs is all kinds of annoying.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2013, 12:48:47 pm »
Keith would it be possible to keep an option for combining scenario/normal space relic. Otherwise looks good overall.

Think of it like this. Take out the drop list for "nebula or relic box". Turn it into two separate enable like how you can turn on normal hybrid but have advance hybrid off or both hybrid type turned on.

What? I like the bonus starship provided by nebula. They can be useful for clearing out threat slowly since they hit hard relative to mk 1.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 12:51:12 pm by Vyndicu »

Offline tmm

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2013, 02:30:41 am »
Well, I certainly didn't mean to come across as piling on, it's something I've been thinking about for a while and a topic popped up, that's all.

As for my 2c on the future of Champions, the main thing that I'd like to see is to have them integrated into the main game better.  By that I mean that nebulas are all well and good, but there's no way to provide any advancement for your champion outside of nebulas, and there's really no special dangers for champions either.

As for things that champions care about outside of nebulas in a good way, relic caches are a good idea, but ideally I'd like to see a couple different types of mini missions, 3-5 maybe, to break things up a bit.  In addition to relic caches, you could also do something like seed champion research labs that would unlock a module type, for those that dislike the RNG aspect.

I'd also like to see stuff that champions care about in a bad way, stuff that you'd need to be careful of, avoid, send in your main fleet to clear the way for the champion, or maybe bull through with very high level champion(s).  I posted some ideas for special defenses in the other thread, and I think something like that would make the galaxy a much more interesting place to fly a champion in, because right now almost every system looks like the next from the perspective of a champion.

By the way, the nemesis champion response seems much more reasonable post 6.031, it's something I don't mind playing against (so far) rather than OMG THE CRANKED UP HYBRIDS ARE COMING TO EAT MEEEE!!!!

Offline Onyx

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2013, 07:09:54 am »
The problem with champions can really be summed up into a few specific points.

  • Nebula are too disconnected from the main game, too random at times, and ultimately way too time consuming.
  • Short of a nebula being right at victory or defeat, death is meaningless as a champion.
  • Champions have absolutely no character to them.
  • Why am I bothering being a pure champion when I don't have the exact same power as a fleet and my allies end up getting more power from the free starships spawned?
  • Not enough abilities for the champions
  • Not enough uniqueness across different hulls/classes (see point 3)

The solutions for this seem rather simple.  The first and foremost is to undock progression from nebula almost exclusively.  If you're going to keep nebula in, either keep it as its own separate game or as a rare situation that comes up and which the pass/fail event affects the main game quite substantially, instead of as a method of progress.  To this end, the best system I can see to tie champion progression (levelling, strictly) into is the research system itself.  Using the research system has many benefits for champions.

  • It means that the RTS players and RPG (champion) players always progress with each other, neither can get ahead of behind the other reliably, and more importantly, it can be controlled better in terms of leveling versus the AI being powered up.
  • This can be partially accomplished by making the champ a research unit of its own, though this isn't necessary since champs require an RTS player.  But, it means the champion is always working with the RTS player and gaining rewards along with their allies and can directly support their allies in this effort.  Especially deepstriking colonies to research there where the RTS player likely will never go.
  • This would be strictly for leveling and doesn't have to touch on unlocking new ship types, classes, or weapons.

Classes most likely should be directly handled either through champion selection or through leveling.  If you don't want players playing a frigate through the entire game with appropriate power for it, as an example, that's fine.  Unlocking new weapons should be a bit different.  The best option is likely to slave new weapons to things like advanced research to promote exploration with the ship.

The big problem here now is that champions need to have character.  Why am I choosing a Human hull over a Zenith hull, for example?  This shouldn't be something I can near-literally freely swap around  A player should choose one racial hull at start and stick with it, or changing from hull to hull should be an exceptionally costly endeavor.  Furthermore, hulls should be very distinct from each other.  Right now, you have some racial uniqueness such as humans being the only ones with heavy beams, but this can go a step further.  For instance, humans can be the primary direct combat ship using beams, missiles, and generally having the most hard points for weaponry.  Zenith could potentially be a "Carrier" champion.  One that stays further at range and just spawns wave after wave of disposable ships to attack the enemy.  It would have a completely distinct playstyle from the Human champion instead of being shades different but ultimately the same.  This helps enforce champion identity a hell of a lot better than some turrets not working on some hulls.

As a byproduct of the prior, each champion should have a unique selection of weapons only they get with some overlap as the devs feel it fits.  Each class of champion should feel unique from the other, and that includes firing unique weapons.  The human ship has that in that they are the only ones to use heavy beams.  This uniqueness should spread to different chassis as it builds character for the champions.

I would also suggest as a potential option to remove all scaling of power from researching weapons up ranks.  All weapons would tier up based off of which chassis you're in.  Default would be 2, 3 for destroyer, 4 for cruiser, 5 for battleship.  Alternatively, slave slot levels to a unique upgrade path, which leads me to...

Champion abilities (part of character).  Champion progression is very...uninteresting presently.  You unlock stuff within a nebula, upgrade weapons lockstep up a path slowly, but leveling largely controls your tier of weapon.  Instead, leveling should really be refocused around perhaps general upgrades (weapon/defense tiers) or around active abilities, of which a plethora of abilities should be added.  For instance, the default ability of spawning a shield is stuck pretty much at the same power always.  Why can't this be leveled up?  It'd be interesting if I had to make a choice while leveling of either upping my weapons to the next tier, upping my defenses to the next tier, upgrading this shield ability, perhaps as a human ship I also have an offensive option of launching a wide-area torpedo.  Having to make choices over what is upgraded, how, is fairly important.  Forcing players to choose one of 4 races of champion and then making each race fundamentally unique from each other helps build attachment to the ship and overall increases the enjoyment.  Adding options between, oh, 4 active abilities and maybe passive systems upgrades would help in this regard.

These are just the ideas I have for now.  But as it stands, champions feel like a half-baked idea that aren't all there, but have the potential for a variety of gameplay-altering options to allow for a player to be as strong as an RTS player without being an RTS player.

So, in summation:
  • Slave champion progression in part to research.  This is primarily to make sure that champions and the RTS players stay in relative power, and helps aid balancing while promoting players playing together.
  • Make champions equivalent to 1 player in power, but have significant cost if you lose them.  This is more a matter of just balancing the champions to keep pace with an RTS player at all times.
  • Force players to choose one race of champion, perhaps one class of champion, but make each champion fundamentally distinct from each other with a unique playstyle and active abilities
  • Make the primary benefit of leveling a champion gaining access to ever more powerful abilities more so than equipment, the equipment should keep pace with the champion's class or level innately
  • Unlock new weapons in similar ways to unlocking new units for RTS players.  For instance, with adv. research labs.  Abilities might also be unlocked this way to offer new options.

This is by no means a list of things that have to be done.  Some of these ideas won't be great, won't work for the game, would be too difficult to implement, and so on and so forth.  But the important thing is to make people want to play just champions by making them individually interesting while also making them play with everyone else in the game in the same game.  Those 2 points are by far the most important.

Offline Tridus

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Re: The future of Champions
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2013, 07:22:42 am »
I turned champions back on for my last two games. Both times, the first nebula was the shattered pillar three way battle. In a low level human frigate, that is one of the worst ones you can get.

Both times I reloaded a save and went to another nebula. Both times I got the gray spire gatlings one (MUCH better for a first nebula). After that they diverged, but in one case the second one was another one with bases to attack and defend. To say that the Spire frigate is better than the Human frigate at attacking starbases is an epic understatement. Even on the frigate, the photon lance eats big things for breakfast.

That's kind of it in a nutshell for me, with nebulae. The first time I did them, I didn't know that I was in an hour long grinder until I was 30 minutes into it. Now that I do, I just avoid that one entirely until I can bring something bigger to the fight. Shattered pillar is a lot more fun once you're in a destroyer.

(A side effect is that I also avoid maps that only have one nebula relatively close to my starting area, as I don't want to discover the first one is a painful one and then have to get nine hops away to get a second chance.)