Author Topic: Swarmer ships  (Read 4270 times)

Offline _K_

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2013, 12:19:45 PM »
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The problem I see with Swarmers is that many of them could use Area of Effect Immunity.
Isnt that thing supposed to counter them? By the way, those AOE starships we have can deal damage to unlimited number of ships in the area, right? We probably want that nerfed.

Swarmers are also countered by multi-shot weapons though, and there are lots of those. There are generally lots of things that counter swarmers by dealing lots of damage to them, and then there are other things that counter swarmers by having lots of armor.

Meanwhile, swarmers only seriously counter... artillery golems?

So, since there are so many things that counter swarmers, how about we actually make swarmers generally counter everything else. I think we should give the "more cap HP + more DPS" thing a shot. Give some swarmers AOE immunity so they are only countered by multi-shot, leave some not immune to AOE and boost their HP to make them stronger against multi-shots.
I mean, if you set those values high enough, they will be useful, right? Why are we trying to invent crutch mechanics instead? Is it because they look balanced on paper? Well clearly thats the problem with paper, not with with the swarmers. Maybe Cap DPS + Cap Health do not determine ship's strength as tightly as you want to believe?
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if Raiders.. immune to Ion Cannons...they would instantly become useful in a fleet.
That very specific part, no. If ion cannons cant target raiders, they will target something else. something probably more valuable.

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Make them dirt cheap to build/replace, not as effective as a cap of regular fleetships but way more expendable.
Many swarmers already seem to be in that area. The problem is that every ship is pretty much expendable. Your capped fleet strength is what matters most, not the time it takes to rebuild it. I do love fighters for their great price, but if someone offered to make them 50% stronger and 100% more expensive, i would gladly accept.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 12:32:47 PM by _K_ »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2013, 12:41:00 PM »
The problem is that every ship is pretty much expendable. Your capped fleet strength is what matters most, not the time it takes to rebuild it.

This, this so much.

This is one of the biggest reasons why traditional RTS balance models don't work in AI war. In the current balance, once you get past the early game, the cost of individual (not ultra low cap) fleet ships doesn't matter, only cap costs. And even then, it is only when rebuilding do you care about their costs. (Note, I am talking about fleet ships only for this, starships and golems are expensive to care enough about individual costs quite late into the game)

Not sure if I would classify this as a problem with the current balance, or just something that is a unique "flavor" AI war has...

But it has been like this for as long as I could remember (again, once you are past the early game).

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2013, 12:46:33 PM »
The problem is that every ship is pretty much expendable. Your capped fleet strength is what matters most, not the time it takes to rebuild it.

This, this so much.

This is one of the biggest reasons why traditional RTS balance models don't work in AI war. In the current balance, once you get past the early game, the cost of individual (not ultra low cap) fleet ships doesn't matter, only cap costs. And even then, it is only when rebuilding do you care about their costs. (Note, I am talking about fleet ships only for this, starships and golems are expensive to care enough about individual costs quite late into the game)

Not sure if I would classify this as a problem with the current balance, or just something that is a unique "flavor" AI war has...

But it has been like this for as long as I could remember (again, once you are past the early game).

I'm going to have to disagree.

When you are pushed to the limit (your economy that is) cost means everything. It's why I favor fighters out of the triangle for general use.

Units that I consider "siege breakers" are units that have cheaper then average cap costs, rebuild quickly, and are useful despite not living long. Units like autobombs and neinzul fulfill this role. Cap wise they are underwhelming, but their appeal is that because they are cheap and rebuild quickly, you can machine gun them into the fray to break blockades.

I cite my current game. It truely is meant to be a slog. I have lost 100 thousand units, mostly neinzul, in my efforts. Even a 5% increase in their cost and I would have died.

In every game I have lost, it was due to my economy not being able to replace losses. So for me, cost is everything.
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Offline _K_

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2013, 12:55:26 PM »
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In every game I have lost, it was due to my economy not being able to replace losses. So for me, cost is everything.
Well duh, if you could replace everything fast enough, you'd never be in trouble.

This is like HP regen vs Max HP argument in DOTA. To win in a direct confrontation, you need max HP. To outlast youropponent in a prolonged battle of attrition, you need HP regen.

If you could replace your ships faster, then you could have fought back. But if you had stronger fleet, would you end up in such bad situation in first place?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2013, 12:57:23 PM »
By the way, those AOE starships we have can deal damage to unlimited number of ships in the area, right?
No, that's not true.  The only "unlimited AOE" units in the game are warheads and martyrs.  Every other form of AOE has a maximum number of targets that can be affected by the blast.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2013, 01:01:28 PM »


If you could replace your ships faster, then you could have fought back. But if you had stronger fleet, would you end up in such bad situation in first place?

If you are taking waves on low caps that are in the thousands, and exo waves with 10K+ FP, no amount of fleet strength will allow you to overcome it without significant losses.
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Offline _K_

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2013, 01:31:58 PM »

If you are taking waves on low caps that are in the thousands, and exo waves with 10K+ FP, no amount of fleet strength will allow you to overcome it without significant losses.

Then a very large part of your total costs is stored in static defences, not in the fleet ships. Am i wrong? i'm asking because i actually might be

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2013, 01:39:42 PM »
First, I don't think I want Swarmers stepping on the toes of Neinzul/Autobombs.  Maybe one could go that direction.  I think pushing them all into that role is redundant.

I'd prefer to see higher cap-DPS from Swarmers.  I like the idea of some being AOE immune with fairly normal cap-HP and others having high cap-HP, but I think the hull bonus system works against us here.  With multipliers against Swarmer, everything is going to be able to one-shot them unless their cap HP gets insane.  Maybe Swarmers should have almost no ships with a bonus to their hull type, since they are generally so low health anyway?

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2013, 01:43:15 PM »

If you are taking waves on low caps that are in the thousands, and exo waves with 10K+ FP, no amount of fleet strength will allow you to overcome it without significant losses.

Then a very large part of your total costs is stored in static defences, not in the fleet ships. Am i wrong? i'm asking because i actually might be

No, because my cheap units are my defenses.

More accurately, my mix of nenzul units are made to die before the enemy breaches my defenses, but in the process of dying, completely disrupt as the neinzul pull of AoE attacks, paralysis, armor reduction, and reclamation. As long as the money to pump them out, any AI blob will die.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Swarmer ships
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2013, 08:15:27 AM »
We could just make a cap of them much stronger than a cap of non-swarmers to compensate, but I have an alternative idea: emphasize their Neinzul-ness. Make them dirt cheap to build/replace, not as effective as a cap of regular fleetships but way more expendable. Make them good for whatever the player might need cannon fodder for, basically.
This gives them a distinct role as a group, and makes the cap-strength imbalance less important.
I'm going to have to vote for this. Swarmers as a group can be a lot more useful if their value lies not in how powerful they are when grouped but the fact that you could feasibly set a couple of assisted factories to rally to a system you're killing without tanking your resources. That still leaves a couple of odd ones out, but that can be fixed with multiplier or numbers tweaks.
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