Super-Terminal 'Re-Balancing'

[Kahuna]

Iirc it costs 1 HaP per tick for the first X ticks (I don't recall the precise value of X, possibly 20) then 1.5 per tick for the next X after that, then 2.25 per tick for the next X after that, etc.

You also gain 1 HaP per tick because you gain 1 AIP per tick (and also lose 2 AIP per tick, giving a net of -1 but a positive effect on the floor).

The first X ticks still cost HaP in the sense that if you'd gained that AIP in some other way you'd be gaining HaP, not just holding steady on it.

Ninjaed.
I was about to "Boom! Solve the problem!".

[Hearteater]

Gotcha. Not surprisingly I wasn't riding the ST long enough to hit the next tier . Incidentally, this method seems extra complex without need. Do we really need to do -2 AIP +1 AIP just to raise the floor? It may do that behind the scenes, but the player just needs to know they get -1 AIP and +x floor.

[keith.lamothe]

True, nowadays we do have direct modifiers to the floor.

[Toranth]

Ok, bringing this back up again.
My current game had the unfortunate circumstance that the SuperTerminal was located on the same world as a Spire Archive (Note - this sucks).  Normally, I run the ST for 60 points of AIP reduction and stop.  This uses a net of 35 HaP (a total of 95 Hacking Agression) - a good amount, but leaves room for other hacks.

This time, I had to stop at 50, and use warheads.  This was unusual enough that I dug into the logs and did some experiments to find out why.  And now, I have some questions.

First thing I noticed was that the SuperTerminal response starts off odd:

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spawnStrength = TotalNumberOfSuperTerminalTicks * 4 = 12That's the first line of the first tick of the first hack.  TotalNumberOfSuperTerminalTicks should equal 1 at this point, as there has only been 1 tick executed, but it actually equals 3.  Why?

Second thing I noticed is that the spawnStrength, as shown in the equation above, increases linearly with the number of SuperTerminal tick executed.  This base spawnStrength is later multiplied by the Hacking Antagonism in the equation spawnStrength *= multiplierForSuperterminalHackResponseSpawn = 56.69.  The multiplier here is based on the equation multiplierForSuperterminalHackResponseSpawn = 1 + (totalHackingAntagonism/200) = 1.05 which, as you can see, is non-linear because totalHackingAntagonism is the sum of HaP expended, and for the SuperTerminal that's roughly SUM(0 to #_ticks) [1 * 1.5^(#_ticks/20)].
The problem here is that this multiplier is so small as to have almost no effect compared to the base spawnStrength = numberOfTicks factor.  To get a 100% increase in strength due to the HaP usage, you'd need to spend 200 HaP on SuperTerminal hacking - and that's about 90 points of AIP reduction.  In other words, very rare.

To give an example, the first tick I showed up above had spawnStrength = 12.  Tick 50 (50 AIP reduction) had spawnStrength = 600, or 50 times as much (obviously  ).  The final multiplier for that spawn was only 1.36!  In other words, only 36% more because of the multiplier.

This seems odd to me.  The Hacking Antagonism factor is non-linear to discourage using any one hacking tool too much, but for the SuperTerminal it is fairly minor compared to the other factors.

On the Diff 9 ST hack for 50 AIP reduction I mentioned above, the "Post-SuperTerminal Hack Response Spawn" was 16,000 strength.  Pretty strong.  4 Mk I H/Ks equivalent.  However, according to the logs, the previous 4 minutes or so of SuperTerminal spawns totaled over 86,000 strength.  On Diff 10, it'd be twice those numbers.  That's a lot of strength.

So the best option is to hack the SuperTerminal for 30 AIP reduction and then destroy it.
SuperTerminal= -30 AIP

Net of -10 AIP, because you had to kill an AI Command Station to capture the SuperTerminal to begin with.   Data Centers are safer, and thus better, at that point.

Do we really need to do -2 AIP +1 AIP just to raise the floor? It may do that behind the scenes, but the player just needs to know they get -1 AIP and +x floor.

This may actually be the best way to solve the problem.  If instead of -2/+1, you do a -1/+0.25, it makes the hack start costing HaP immediately.  That reduces the amount of AIP Reduction a player can get, through the normal HaP restrictions.  This should be combined with a reduction of a the linear strength per-tick increase and an increase in the Hacking Antagonism multiplier for SuperTerminal response, and perhaps an increase in the base HaP cost (1->2?) or the HaP multiplier (1.5->2.0?).   With those changes, I think we can see a better sort of response to the SuperTerminal - difficult, potentially deadly, but more useful than Data Centers are higher difficulties.

[Faulty Logic]

So the best option is to hack the SuperTerminal for 30 AIP reduction and then destroy it.
SuperTerminal= -30 AIP

I disagree. I usually go for about 60/80 reduction, which basically spawns a CPA worth of enemies, which can be dealt with without warheads.

Do we really need to do -2 AIP +1 AIP just to raise the floor? It may do that behind the scenes, but the player just needs to know they get -1 AIP and +x floor.

Yes, it keeps the hacking cost reasonable.

Data Centers are safer, and thus better, at that point.

Data centers are always better, but they are gone by the time of the ST hack (ST is mid game, DCs are early game).

I think the Hacking Antagonism multiplier is there to kill you if you start to go negative, without affecting normal hacks very much.

[Hearteater]

Do we really need to do -2 AIP +1 AIP just to raise the floor? It may do that behind the scenes, but the player just needs to know they get -1 AIP and +x floor.

Yes, it keeps the hacking cost reasonable.

No, it doesn't have to effect the hacking cost because the hacking cost is arbitrary and we can change it to whatever we want at the same time we change from -2/+1 to -1 and +x floor. To maintain the current hacking cost it would just cost 0 HaP for the first set of ticks (instead of costing 1 HaP but gaining 1 HaP via AIP gain). Unless we went with Toranth's suggestion of it cost HaP from the start. I think I agree with Toranth however. I don't really like hacking that sometimes doesn't cost HaP.

[keturn]

As a new player, the relationship between the Super Terminal and the Hacking points is very unclear. I initially assumed that hacking the ST was an action you'd have to take explicitly with a Hacker unit, but this is not the case. Then my friend told me the ST didn't use Hacking points at all, which was counter to what I'd read here, but is apparently because it increases Hacking points as much as it decreases them — at first, anyway — but then maybe that changes over time? only we didn't ever see it at that point, because we didn't let the ST run that long, maybe because we triggered it earlier in the game that we should have? It sounds like it's a one-of-a-kind super-important strategic goal, but it seemed like a lot of bother and a lot of time to offset the AIP cost of even a single system.

[Draco18s]

Takes something like 15 or 20 points worth.  Because it's like floor(last * 1.05) until it finally hits "2."

[Toranth]

So the best option is to hack the SuperTerminal for 30 AIP reduction and then destroy it.
SuperTerminal= -30 AIP

I disagree. I usually go for about 60/80 reduction, which basically spawns a CPA worth of enemies, which can be dealt with without warheads.

In the game I was playing as an example, one of the AI types was a Vanguard, so ship *count* wasn't a good measure of what spawned.  Strength, on the other hand, worked OK.  I reloaded an older save, and ran the SuperTerminal to 80 AIP reduction.  At that point, the total during-hack strength spawned was about 400,000, while the end-response was about 75,000 strength.  I continued to 100 AIP reduction, at which point the total spawned was well over 600,000 and the response strength was about 100,000.

My 4th CPA in that game was 50% reserve units and 50% Mk IV units - it totaled about 30,000 strength.
The total Strategic Reserve available to each AI was only 18,000 strength.  If the AI had thrown every unit in the galaxy at me, including the Special Forces and the Reserves and all 5,000 misc. units, it still would have totaled only about 10% of what the SuperTerminal was putting out.

Data Centers are safer, and thus better, at that point.

Data centers are always better, but they are gone by the time of the ST hack (ST is mid game, DCs are early game).

It's not a matter of when, but what.  If the SuperTerminal gives no more bonus than a Data Center, it should have no more cost than one.

Do we really need to do -2 AIP +1 AIP just to raise the floor? It may do that behind the scenes, but the player just needs to know they get -1 AIP and +x floor.

Yes, it keeps the hacking cost reasonable.

No, it doesn't have to effect the hacking cost because the hacking cost is arbitrary and we can change it to whatever we want at the same time we change from -2/+1 to -1 and +x floor. To maintain the current hacking cost it would just cost 0 HaP for the first set of ticks (instead of costing 1 HaP but gaining 1 HaP via AIP gain). Unless we went with Toranth's suggestion of it cost HaP from the start. I think I agree with Toranth however. I don't really like hacking that sometimes doesn't cost HaP.

Yeah, I think the costs need a change, and for more reasons than the simplicity factor you've pointed out.

Right now, the HaP cost is pretty insignificant.  80 AIP Reduction costs 82.5 HaP, while even 100 AIP Reduction only costs 163.75 HaP.  The AI response is the only reason a player WOULDN'T do an 80-100 point ST ride.
I'd rather up the HaP cost, so that basically the hack is possible, if difficult, as long as you have positive HaP.  That trades for opportunity cost over some of the current death-risk.

Consider the following changes:
1)  Base HaP cost-per-tick goes from 1 to 1.5.
2)  Per tick change goes from -2 AIP/+1 AIP to -1 AIP/+0.25 AIP Floor (diff based?).

This means an 80 AIP Reduction now costs about 250 HaP, while 100 AIP Reduction costs 400.
If a player REALLY wants to spend 400 HaP (=400 gained AIP) to reduce AIP by 100, they can go right ahead.  That seems like an inefficient trade to me.  120 AIP Reduction, btw, would cost almost 650 HaP... it really isn't an activity that can continue that long.

[Toranth]

As a new player, the relationship between the Super Terminal and the Hacking points is very unclear. I initially assumed that hacking the ST was an action you'd have to take explicitly with a Hacker unit, but this is not the case. Then my friend told me the ST didn't use Hacking points at all, which was counter to what I'd read here, but is apparently because it increases Hacking points as much as it decreases them — at first, anyway — but then maybe that changes over time? only we didn't ever see it at that point, because we didn't let the ST run that long, maybe because we triggered it earlier in the game that we should have? It sounds like it's a one-of-a-kind super-important strategic goal, but it seemed like a lot of bother and a lot of time to offset the AIP cost of even a single system.

Right now, the SuperTerminal operates by reducing AIP while simultaneously increasing AIP, -2/+1.  This may seem weird, but there is a reason for it.  AIP Floor is a certain percentage of the total AIP you've gained.  So by simultaneously decreasing and increasing AIP, you have the net effect that current AIP goes does, but the AIP Floor goes up.

Hacking Progress gain is directly equal to AIP gain.  So each Tick of the SuperTerminal when you gain that +1 AIP, you also gain +1 HaP.
As for cost, the SuperTerminal starts out by costing 1 HaP per tick, for the first 20 ticks (20 net AIP reduction).  Since you are also gaining +1 AIP per tick, this cost/income balance out, and it appears to be "free".
Notice I said "For the first 20 ticks" though.  After you've gotten 20 AIP Reduction, the cost goes up.  Ticks 21-40 cost 1.5 HaP each.  Ticks 41-60 cost 2.25 HaP, and so on (each level costs 1.5 times the previous level).

So, yes, while it may take a long time, the SuperTerminal will eventually give you some real AIP Reduction, and have some real costs associated with it.  But at the rate of 1 tick per 10 seconds (default), those first 20 ticks take 3 minutes.  Stick with it, and you'll get the goodies eventually.  Or die trying, of course.

[Kahuna]

So the best option is to hack the SuperTerminal for 30 AIP reduction and then destroy it.
SuperTerminal= -30 AIP

I disagree. I usually go for about 60/80 reduction, which basically spawns a CPA worth of enemies, which can be dealt with without warheads.

I'm sure you can deal with anything since you use Fallen Spire, Champion, Golems and Spirecraft.
EDIT: I'm not trying to be a jackass.. I just want to point out that superweapons are.. superweapons.

[Faulty Logic]

I was referring to my non-superweapon games for that number. With them, I'll usually go higher. Last game, I got 73 reduction.

[Kahuna]

I was referring to my non-superweapon games for that number. With them, I'll usually go higher. Last game, I got 73 reduction.

Now, for the Superterminal.

Capturing it was trivial. Hacking it was not:

I intended to use it for 60 points of reduction. The first twenty had a much greater response than I had anticipated, given that this was my first hack all game. Then things started accelerating. By the time it got to 60, it was spawning ships almost every second. Including shield bearers on top of itself. I had to send the fleet into close quarters to kill it, at 73 ticks.

And then I had 4000 mkIV-V ships to deal with, while my fleet was, if not in tatters, heavily damaged.

The fleet withdrew, repairing and replenishing at the homeworld, while the enemy destroyed the command station and turrets. The enemy fleet was about to leave when mine arrived again, and it engaged.

It took half an hour. I reinstalled the command station four times. I refleeted twice. There's a reason I unlock engineerIIIs every game. They help with everything.

So was the hacking response 4000 Mark IV ships or what?

Because as you can see in one of my screenshots the response was about ~50000 ships.
I wonder what was the version of that game.
I can't check your .sav file I verified cache integrity with Steam and it deleted Ancient Shadows expansion which I bought from Arcen Store..had enough of this bullshit.

[Faulty Logic]

4000 Mark IV

Not quite. It was mainly mkV ships, and I got it down to 4000 after some heavy fighting in the rush to the superterminal.

Weird. First, you should know that those are low caps, which are about 4 times stronger. So effectively I had 16000 ships. But that still leaves a difference of a factor of 3. It might be accounted for by that being my first hack of the game, or your AI investing in higher cap ship types than mine. I see you also had significant numbers of mkI carriers, which usually mean mkI ships.

[Toranth]

I see you also had significant numbers of mkI carriers, which usually mean mkI ships.

For some reason, the SuperTerminal and all other hacking responses only produce Mk I Carriers.  Not that I'm complaining, mind you - Mk I Carriers are nasty enough without being 2-5 times as dangerous.