Author Topic: Suggestions  (Read 60478 times)

Offline PhilRoi

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 78
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #195 on: July 31, 2009, 08:05:59 am »
The more the game is played the better the AI gets, if you keep improving it, at some point 10 will be unbeatable to any human, then the AI will take over the Internet and enslave us.

I think many of us have nightmares about this event. :)

I just hope that AI War doesn't become the next V'ger!

I'll make sure it has the three laws of robotics in there.  Oh wait, nevermind, that would make it a pretty pathetic opponent, wouldn't it?  Well, oh well... :)

just include the Zero-ith law,   the often over looked 4th law of robotics that a few special robots grew into.  "No robot may harm humanity, OR THROUGH INACTION ALLOW HUMANITY TO COME TO HARM."



looks like the AI decided that humanity needed to grow up and get a good kick in the rear...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 08:11:28 am by PhilRoi »

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #196 on: July 31, 2009, 11:52:09 am »
This is probably the result of a nerf - but since blobbing is now solved i would suggest giving flagships their damage boosting ability also on the move.

Since these ships are always stuck at the far end of the formation, they really don't spread it anywhere at all, even though a flagship SHOULD at least do that. (it is the flagship after all!)

Maybe limit flagship boost to not stack beyond 3x or something to balance the boost
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #197 on: July 31, 2009, 11:57:57 am »
The more the game is played the better the AI gets, if you keep improving it, at some point 10 will be unbeatable to any human, then the AI will take over the Internet and enslave us.

I think many of us have nightmares about this event. :)

I just hope that AI War doesn't become the next V'ger!

I'll make sure it has the three laws of robotics in there.  Oh wait, nevermind, that would make it a pretty pathetic opponent, wouldn't it?  Well, oh well... :)

just include the Zero-ith law,   the often over looked 4th law of robotics that a few special robots grew into.  "No robot may harm humanity, OR THROUGH INACTION ALLOW HUMANITY TO COME TO HARM."

looks like the AI decided that humanity needed to grow up and get a good kick in the rear...

There you go. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #198 on: July 31, 2009, 11:59:18 am »
This is probably the result of a nerf - but since blobbing is now solved i would suggest giving flagships their damage boosting ability also on the move.

Yep, result of a nerf.  It allowed for too much in the way of "space snakes."  Though, without blobbing, this may be less of an issue now.  Thoughts, everyone?  The upcoming change to collision priority would also help this, since then you could send starships to the center and the other ships would move out of the way instead of the flagship moving.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Revenantus

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,063
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #199 on: July 31, 2009, 12:07:47 pm »
With blobbing eliminated (and large scale fleet movements looking considerably more epic), the problems caused by munitions boosting have been cured.

I'd support allowing munitions boosting on the move again, especially as it would prevent players from having to manually ensure that starships and munitions boosters come to rest as soon as possible when attacking.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #200 on: July 31, 2009, 12:12:24 pm »
With blobbing eliminated (and large scale fleet movements looking considerably more epic), the problems caused by munitions boosting have been cured.

I'd support allowing munitions boosting on the move again, especially as it would prevent players from having to manually ensure that starships and munitions boosters come to rest as soon as possible when attacking.

It is more epic-looking, isn't it?  I've added this un-nerf for munitions boosters in as the last thing in the official 1.011 release.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #201 on: August 01, 2009, 06:11:30 am »
Much more epic looking  :o! Can't believe such a little change actually changes the entire feeling of the game this drastically (for the better!)

I thought i drop in some "tech" suggestions but i completely understand if they are super long term things or might even never be done, atm i am far more happy if gameplay improves too.

These are all Tech/Graphic things - Not Gameplay

- Explosion effects need to be specified per weapon type (at least) - Not important
- And Destruction effects should be per specified per ShipType - Not important
- Ability of the engine to play back png sequences with alpha maps (with a fixed frame rate) Kinda important
- Ability to Scale/Rotate effects at random (even effect sprites that have a sequence) Kinda important

Now it gets graphic techy

Ability to layer sprite effects with different blend modes (Namely, the explosion would need to be a 2 stage effect --
1. The Explosion itself (sprite or sequence)
2. A glow sprite that grows and fades as the sequence goes (to simulate explosion overglow/dust reflecting light) , this would essentially fake volume light in a sprite engine, depending on how the glow sprite is blended this can mean glow / overglow / darkening etc.

This would also enable the use of glow effects generally, though they still should be restricted to explosions and weapon effects. One of the blend modes that goes well is Additive Blend, but i am not too much of a engine guy, i know how to create the effect, just not the tech details.

These are all eye candy, but especially sequences and glow sprites would improve feeling in combats

Aside that - I am absolutely happy with AI war atm ;p No Bug, no problems and finally found a game setting where its really fun ,p
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #202 on: August 01, 2009, 07:19:37 am »
Mhh, ok heres a Gameplay suggestion (hence the double post)

This concerns Unit caps and how quickly they replenish / Shipyards

Suggestion is:
Have the unit caps replenish with a slight delay when a ship is destroyed (1 minute ~) - So that players can't set freeform attack mode through a wormhole and set production to infinite and go do something else (drinking coffee) and come back to a cleaned world.

Yeah, that works with 30 shipyards, i just did ;p (on a III world)

Alternative - Have shipyards gain penalties to production (like mines) when more than 10 (or even fewer) are in one sector


Take it back ;p
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 08:25:13 am by eRe4s3r »
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline Revenantus

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,063
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #203 on: August 01, 2009, 07:53:33 am »
This concerns Unit caps and how quickly they replenish / Shipyards

Suggestion is:
Have the unit caps replenish with a slight delay when a ship is destroyed (1 minute ~) - So that players can't set freeform attack mode through a wormhole and set production to infinite and go do something else (drinking coffee) and come back to a cleaned world.

Yeah, that works with 30 shipyards, i just did ;p (on a III world)

Interesting mechanic, but is the tactic you're describing really a problem? Attempting to capture a planet using those tactics is pretty much the definition of a war of attrition. On anything other than extremely lightly defended planets your method must surely result in absolutely horrendous losses? Perhaps this is a big enough penalty in itself.

I'm not sure that your ships would ever be likely to achieve victory this way on a more heavily defended AI world anyway.

Is a small delay between redeploying ships going to prevent this? If ships were being destroyed at a high rate the delay may not even have an effect.

Alternative - Have shipyards gain penalties to production (like mines) when more than 10 (or even fewer) are in one sector

I'm not convinced that it would be a good idea to encourage a decentralized ship production scheme. Don't you think that this would cause irritation for some players as they are forced to scan around many planets attempting to locate and manage all their spacedocks?

Structures like energy reactors don't require any further management once they're constructed, which is why they're better suited for those types of inefficiency penalties.

My other argument against this is that unlike energy reactors, space docks actually require resources to perform their function. Harvesters are already subject to an inefficiency penalty. Penalties on the spacedocks would only serve to slow down the rate at which the player can utilize the resources they've already gathered.


Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #204 on: August 01, 2009, 08:24:49 am »
Mhh, you convinced me otherwise..

Ignore that Gameplay suggestion ;p on second thought there is nothing wrong with the current system. And war of attrition should be a valid tactic

Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline Revenantus

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,063
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #205 on: August 01, 2009, 08:33:49 am »
I actually think your mechanic regarding ships not releasing their hold on the ship cap for a short while after their destruction could be a pretty cool idea.

However, I don't think it specifically addresses the situation you described, and nor can I think of any other gameplay aspects that it would go towards improving right now.

Perhaps if you maybe see if there's a way of developing the idea a bit further and posting it in the suggestions section? Definitely worth thinking about a bit more.

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #206 on: August 01, 2009, 08:35:26 am »
Yeah, hence i take it back because it doesn't fix any gameplay issue or improves anything. So is kinda pointless (much like graphically improvements ,p)

Sometimes i also have dumb ideas  ;D
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #207 on: August 01, 2009, 10:04:20 am »
Much more epic looking  :o! Can't believe such a little change actually changes the entire feeling of the game this drastically (for the better!)

Glad to hear it!

I thought i drop in some "tech" suggestions but i completely understand if they are super long term things or might even never be done, atm i am far more happy if gameplay improves too.

Bear in mind that, first and foremost, this game has to support a ton of ships onscreen on modest hardware.  So things that increase GPU load significantly, or require better GPUs, are not things I'm going to be super keen about doing.

- Explosion effects need to be specified per weapon type (at least) - Not important
- And Destruction effects should be per specified per ShipType - Not important

I am almost positive I'll never do that, and here's why (sorry):

1. Art isn't free and there are a lot of ship types and I'm adding new ones all the time.  There might some specific ships that have more specific kinds of explosions that are more impressive or whatever, and possibly there might be some specific weapons that hit with a certain graphic, but that's something Phil and I need to work out as we go.

2. Keeping the number of different explosion textures used to a minimum is very important for performance.  Drawing 100 rotated/scaled copies of the same texture graphic is insanely faster than drawing 10 copies each of 10 different texture graphics.  With something like explosions, which for most players are something they see from a very zoomed-out distance, this is a pretty low priority for me.

That said, I do plan on improving the explosion effects a lot, and I very much like your concept of differentiating the shot hits from the ship explosions, but I don't see ever going too overboard with this.  The scale of this game makes certain complex effects impossible, whereas in a game with smaller numbers of ships and certainly smaller numbers of ships on the screen, there are a lot of things I might do differently.  The price of a huge game like this on today's hardware.

- Ability of the engine to play back png sequences with alpha maps (with a fixed frame rate) Kinda important

Uh... the engine does this all over the place. :)  I just don't have a lot of good art with varying alpha maps, since most of the graphics were either (crappy) done by me, or (great) designed by Daniel Cook in the early 90's before alpha maps were a thing in commercial games.  Some of Phil's upcoming stuff already adds alpha layers like glows around planets, etc, and it's things like this that will be a huge visual improvement.  Patience, please!  I know you're really excited about the graphics improvement, and so am I, but I have to give Phil time to actually work. :)

- Ability to Scale/Rotate effects at random (even effect sprites that have a sequence) Kinda important

Yes, yes, this is already there, too.  The electric shuttle effects are a good example of this.  I bet you haven't noticed it's a single frame that just gets rotated and scaled. Maybe I should not have told you that. :)  That's a good example of making an effect that looks really different in a lot of situations, but which is uber-friendly to the GPU.  Very important when the GPU has already had to render 4000 ships (and thus 12,000 sprites), plus the interface elements, plus the background and planet, plus whatever shots and explosions happen to be onscreen.

Ability to layer sprite effects with different blend modes (Namely, the explosion would need to be a 2 stage effect --
1. The Explosion itself (sprite or sequence)
2. A glow sprite that grows and fades as the sequence goes (to simulate explosion overglow/dust reflecting light) , this would essentially fake volume light in a sprite engine, depending on how the glow sprite is blended this can mean glow / overglow / darkening etc.

Anything that a png can do, this engine can do.  That basically boils down to being full ARGB pixel mode for all images, and that pretty much lets you do any effect.  But see my notes above about GPU efficiency.  Just bear in mind that these are not freeform sequences that get loaded from the disk, but rather are sequences that I program in or randomize myself.

This would also enable the use of glow effects generally, though they still should be restricted to explosions and weapon effects. One of the blend modes that goes well is Additive Blend, but i am not too much of a engine guy, i know how to create the effect, just not the tech details.

Well, yes, I could use different blend modes from what I'm currently using -- AlphaSourceBlend -- but a lot of those sorts of effects can be prerendered in Photoshop.  We'll see.  I don't expect to be massively overhauling the engine itself for this, for the simple fact that these sorts of effects either require more CPU or GPU (RAM/horsepower in the case of the latter).  There are a lot of cool things that we can do even without using the latest, most expensive tech, and a lot of that just boils down having a better 2D artist than has previously been working on this game.  I think we'll be able to achieve some really graphically rich effects without raising the system requirements on iota, and that's my goal. :)

Aside that - I am absolutely happy with AI war atm ;p No Bug, no problems and finally found a game setting where its really fun ,p

Excellent!  I look forward to hearing what everybody thinks of the new art as it is rolled out, too, but right now I just need a bit of patience from everyone on that.  Stuff should really get cooking starting at the end of next week, and we should have stuff to show sometime in the following week. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #208 on: August 01, 2009, 10:58:58 am »
Yep yep i see your point.

Though from a graphics nerd standpoint i don't like alpha blending
See attachments ;p (Mockups - Yes, i am seriously bored right now ,p)

But really, i am just saying.... If flashier explosions were ever supported that'd be nice, probably weird to make that as a suggestion given that it only adds more eye candy...

2nd image is using a glow sprite in addition - the size of that boom just because i was too lazy to resize ,p

But yep. I am now officially addicted so explosions or not, i am back playing ai war ;P
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #209 on: August 02, 2009, 11:22:22 am »
That's a pretty convincing example.  My point was just that the bottom effect can be achieved with additive blending in Photoshop or whatever graphics program (because... uh... that's what you did, right? :) ) and then merged into the game using simpler alpha blending.  But, that might have other drawbacks.  I'll definitely take a look at this, at least.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!