Author Topic: Suggested Progression into new Material?  (Read 4146 times)

Offline CovertGuardian

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Suggested Progression into new Material?
« on: February 02, 2011, 02:16:41 pm »
Hi, I am new to AI Wars

My background:
Not much of a RTS fan; but a long time TBS gamer
With TBS friendly pause turned on AI Wars feels like
a grand strategic war game that happens to resolve combat
in continuous time...  And the AI Agression mechanic
gives a nice twist to the normal "be the side with bigger battalions"
effect which makes so many grand strategy games become less
interesting at the end.

I played through the tutorial (after dying once to a counter attack - bravo to the tutorial).
The demo convinced me to buy the game.

I got through my first game (Diff 5 against easy AIs, Normal (as opposed to complex) ship types) -
but I did have to "rewind" once to a save when I failed to prepare for a counter attack properly...

I enjoyed my first full game so well I purchased all the expansions...
But now I find myself a bit overwhelmed by the cornucopia of options available.

So while I know the ultimate answer will be "do what is fun for you Covert..."
does the community have any suggestions for initial exploration of the wonderful world of AI Wars?

My initial thought is to try Difficulty 6, with perhaps one expansion and no minor factions enabled to
see how the game feels with the AI kicking back a bit harder.  If that goes well, then maybe Diff 7 still with easy AI?

But, perhaps stay at dif 5, turn on all the ship types, a couple factions and medium AI to get a feel for the terrain and
only then try to bump up basic difficulty?

A lot of the Wiki and existing forum posts claim things are most interesting at Diff 7.  If Difficulty 7 feels too hard,
then is it "better" (more likely to be fun) to drop back to 6 or play against 7 with a pro-player handicap of some kind?

Thanks for any thoughts you have on a "most likely to be fun" path into the AI Wars gameverse.



« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 02:20:31 pm by CovertGuardian »

Offline dumpsterKEEPER

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2011, 02:28:34 pm »
I think both of your suggested paths would be worth trying. There are a lot of options available with all of the expansions, so if you're feeling overwhelmed, I'd suggest not enabling any of the minor factions right now. You might also limit it to simple or normal ship types, and not jump to complex right away. If you felt like difficulty 5 was a cake walk, then you might try bumping it straight to 7 and see how it goes.

It's hard to say exactly, as the difficulty can change based on what AI types you're up against and the map style you've selected, among many other things. Personally, I keep all three expansions enabled and adjust minor factions and other settings to modulate the amount of craziness I want in a particular game.

Edit: Oh, and welcome to the game/forums!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 02:30:27 pm by dumpsterKEEPER »

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2011, 02:37:57 pm »
You definitely have the right idea, both of your suggestions involve easing into things in a reasonable way without overwhelming yourself with new difficulty and new strategic factors. Beyond that it's a little hard to say what the best path for you is, since it really depends a lot on you.

Personally, I played my first game on difficulty 6 with 2 easy AI's and no minor factions. I lost, but felt I had a much clearer grasp of the game after that, so I bumped it up to 7, turned on complex ship types, turned on the zenith remnant, and turned on the dyson sphere minor faction. That was a reasonable progression for me (I lost that one too, but it was another "educational" loss, and there's nothing I like more), but it might be too much (or not nearly enough!) for someone else.

Oh, and if your background is more TBS than RTS (like mine) you might want to change the game speed to "epic." It evokes that "grand strategy" feel without quite as much need for frequent pausing.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 02:39:45 pm by Vinraith »

Offline Red Spot

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2011, 03:06:51 pm »
I cant help giggle when I see people talk about "TBS" in relationship to games.

Probably wont say much to you, but in my country it basicly stands for, put in an example, when say someone kills an other but cant be held accountable for it, the punishment you get is TBS. Dont really now how to translate it properly but in effect it means the state now owns you ... for as long as they feel fit ..

Offline Zhaine

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2011, 05:58:31 pm »
As another recent addition to AI War addicts anonymous the community, I had a similar dilemma. My previous interests were also grand strategy and all things turn based, so, as mentioned, epic speed was a very good choice.

My first full game was a 5/5 with no expansions, which was educational but too easy. Since then I've only played 7/7 AIs (with first two expansions, but I'm not getting LotS until it's on steam) and would recommend this. You may lose and/or have to "rewind" a bit, but will learn more about the (almost) full capabilities of the AI and have more fun losing on 7 than winning on <7 (in my very limited experience anyway).

In a bid to not overwhelm myself though I've gone with no minor factions but all bonus ship types, which is not something I'd recommend necessarily. I've heard factions like the Zenith Trader and the Dyson Sphere talked about as "always on" and they sound very cool, so I kinda wish I'd switched these on before adding all the weird and exotic bonus types to the game :p

As I said I'm new too and haven't seen any of the LotS content so this is based on very limited experience, but maybe that's what you wanted!

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2011, 07:05:21 pm »
All the different plots and factions can all interact in a variety of ways, too, so something you try once and then combine with something different may get you a brand new experience. I've only barely scratched the surface myself. I will say that golems and spirecraft from TZR and LotS respectively can really be a lot of fun if you want a very high powered game. Several of the golems are quite capabale, with a bit of micro management, of wiping out low mark worlds by themselves. The Fallen Spire 'minor' faction is quite a different beast as well. The most obvious difference I've noticed between difficulty 6 and 7 is that the AI is smarter about running if you bring in a ridiculous overkill amount of firepower to a lightly defended world. On 6 they'll just sit around and let you chop through them at your leisure. Also on the speed of the game. I too am more of a fan of turn based strategy, although I hate waiting for the other side to go, so AI War is the perfect medium. I don't know that I'd suggest Epic speed though to someone who likes to use the pause feature all the time. I do the same thing, pausing liberally. But once I've given all my orders, I prefer to see them carried out pretty quick so I can get on to the next thing. I would suggest epic speed more for someone who wants time to consider the battlefield but is averse to using the pause feature for whatever reason. Combining them both will get you an extremely slow game.

And welcome all the newcomers to the AI War addicts support group. Be sure to wear you name tags, and punch and chips are available on the table in the corner. Together, we'll get through it, one day at a time.  ;)

Offline Colonel J

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2011, 01:15:59 pm »
Good stuff guys, really helpful to read the advice in this thread as I am in exactly the same position as people here. Just starting out properly into the game at a 'real' difficulty level. I dipped in and out of the tutorial then several half-finished campaigns over many months then finally focussed on it properly and finished my first campaign at Level 5, which I won too easily (the Turtle AI was a total walkover at this difficulty, but I digress). My first Diff 7 campaign will be the Light of the Spire plot as I'm excited to see what that's all about, but if I wasn't focussing on LotS I must admit I'd be looking through the wiki at all the options and scratching my head wondering how 'vanilla' or not I should I should make my first big campaign.

What I think the Wiki would really benefit from is a section with a similar title to this thread....How to approach and progress into games options for AI types, AI Plots, Minor Factions, AI modifiers (map styles maybe too....). These options are good for starting or intermediate players looking to mix it up a bit. Some people like to use these options as standard. These options are more for the hardcore, approach with care. Try this if you want a change of pace from what you may be used to. 

I know bits of this are in the wiki pages already (it takes some digging and is split across different sections on different expansions). But this aspect of the game can be overwhelming for beginners.

A specific question - how punishing is the Avenger AI plot? Do people use it much? Thinking about a Diff 6 game with it turned on when I get done with LotS...
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 01:20:54 pm by Colonel J »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 03:35:29 pm »
A specific question - how punishing is the Avenger AI plot? Do people use it much? Thinking about a Diff 6 game with it turned on when I get done with LotS...
It depends.  If it's on only 1 AI you can bypass it completely by simply killing that AI last.  If both AIs have it you can bypass it by killing both AIs at once, but that's a challenge in its own right (on some maps, at least).

If you have to actually fight an avenger it really depends.  The first time it will probably kill you.  But there are ways of whittling it down.

And if you're fairly far into a Fallen Spire campaign it's not too hard to kill because of how much firepower you have.  But it still leaves a mark.
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2011, 03:41:33 pm »
Strictly speaking if it's on both AI's you don't have to kill them simultaneously to avoid the avenger. It moves pretty slowly, so it basically serves as a (rather destructive) time limit on how quickly you have to kill the other AI. I've let you get through three or four systems while I worked on, then destroyed, the second AI homeworld. As long as you're in a position where losing a couple of systems doesn't matter (and I know *I* usually am at the end of the game) then it's virtually always best not to engage the Avenger directly.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2011, 03:44:04 pm »
Strictly speaking if it's on both AI's you don't have to kill them simultaneously to avoid the avenger. It moves pretty slowly, so it basically serves as a (rather destructive) time limit on how quickly you have to kill the other AI. I've let you get through three or four systems while I worked on, then destroyed, the second AI homeworld. As long as you're in a position where losing a couple of systems doesn't matter (and I know *I* usually am at the end of the game) then it's virtually always best not to engage the Avenger directly.
Maybe I should have it randomly spawn at the other AI home command station... and stay there ;D
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Offline Colonel J

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2011, 04:49:54 pm »
I'm liking the sound of Avenger for added fun - and the part about the Fallen Spire giving you the fire power to deal with it. May give it a go, perhaps not for my first time at Diff 7 though...



Offline LordSloth

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 03:22:09 pm »
My thoughts on the matter:

The neinzul expansion is my favorite, very aggressively fun, emphasis on aggressive. However, it's a horrible choice to start with, because you can't counter wardens, enclaves, or hives the same way you can most everything else. The counters aren't that difficult, mind you, but they can wreck things in a hurry, especially if you can't spare any time and forces to respond. It's the last one I'd recommend you try out.

The spire expansion isn't that tricky - you generally remain very much in control when things get dangerous - but it is a nice challenge.

The zenith remnant? It's probably the first expansion I'd turn on. Dyson spheres, traders, etc- the factions generally aren't out to get you. Even the devourer golem isn't exactly out to get you so much as acting like a force of nature. However, the new ship types and especially AI types it can bring to the table can make things exciting in the hands of the AI. I also enjoy a lot of of the minor factions, but it's a bit of a toybox expansion, with things to play with, rather than necessarily against.

Stage One: Vanilla
For the first game, I'd suggest vanilla with astro trains AI Plot, and random moderate/easier AIs with random types revealed. Don't worry about finishing this unless you enjoy it. Instead, restart as often as you feel like, and get a feel for various AI types, bonus ships, basic defenses, how fast you can expand, etc. Don't put on the human minor factions yet - they'll just complicate things before you're confidently able to handle the regular stuff. Once you find some AI opponents you like, and especially the ones you don't like, go on to stage two.

Stage Two: Zenith
Now feel free to complicate things. Turn trains back off for the moment, but feel free to enable the all the minor factions available to you - except golems - you want that to be only on easy. While you're at it, up the difficultly of the AIs - if you were at six, try seven. If you were at seven, try 7.3. Take this as your opportunity to get familiar with these factions before you encounter them in a co-op game. The Easy Golem minor faction will help compensate for the higher difficulty you'll find. If you find yourself not liking something, feel free to restart and turn it off - you'll most likely find yourself despising the Marauders, though those pirates used to be my favorite minor faction. If you find yourself fascinated, feel free to carry the game through to the end, but don't bother restarting more than twice - after that, just enable the next expansion. I do recommend sticking to easier AIs TYPES for the moment. You might even want to go off of random.

Stage Three: Neinzul
If you're finding yourself comfortable at difficulty seven AI, or a bit bored over the course of a long singleplayer game, enable the Neinzul expansion - the minor factions and AI plot all tend to really spice things up and keep you on your toes, even when you have figured out how to fight the off with just stationary defenses. And when your stationary defenses fail, your fleet should be able to handle them a lot better than your turrets. If you're in a co-op game, you probably don't need the Neinzul factions enabled to keep things exciting. In a co-op game, your partner will provide both an element of uncertainty and direction when you're feeling overwhelmed by possible paths. I find a 2p game goes by a lot quicker than a 1p game for quite a few reasons. While you're at it, turn the golems back to moderate. Having them on easy defeats the purpose of inviting Neinzul into your galaxy. I suggest experimenting with the various AI types again, at this stage. Enable the zenith or human factions purely as a matter of taste. Having Golems on moderate will help reintroduce you to being careful about your power and resources in time for the next expansion.

Stage Four: Light of the Spire
By this point, you've gotten a feel for how all the minor factions play, and upped your difficulty level to something reasonable for your satisfaction. The spire content can be pretty drastic, so there are a few ways to approach this.
1). Keep your previous favorite game setup, just add spirecraft on medium, and AVOID the fallen spire campaign. The balance of difficulty should remain mostly the same, though spirecraft will remain a point in your favor. The AI will take advantage of some of the new bonus ship types to keep you on your toes, even though it won't use the asteroid ships.
2). Rebalance your game setup around exploring the fallen spire campaign content. This most likely will involve turning off Neinzul Wardens, Enclaves, Hybrid Hives, Marauders, and anything else that would be a horrible complication while you're trying to escort a plot point back to your homeworld. Meanwhile, feel free to turn up some other facets of the game. For me, I'm exploring the campaign with easy golems and spirecraft, but a starfleet commander and golemite AIs to keep things spicy, with a dash of Avenger plot.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 03:25:42 pm »
We have created a monster, haven't we?
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 04:45:05 pm »
Strictly speaking if it's on both AI's you don't have to kill them simultaneously to avoid the avenger. It moves pretty slowly, so it basically serves as a (rather destructive) time limit on how quickly you have to kill the other AI. I've let you get through three or four systems while I worked on, then destroyed, the second AI homeworld. As long as you're in a position where losing a couple of systems doesn't matter (and I know *I* usually am at the end of the game) then it's virtually always best not to engage the Avenger directly.
Maybe I should have it randomly spawn at the other AI home command station... and stay there ;D

Well that's just... diabolical.  :-\ ;D

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Suggested Progression into new Material?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2011, 08:21:06 pm »
There is only one way: Diff 8, to get the full AI load. All expansions and optional components turned on.

GO GO GO for sudden death! LEARNING BY DYING! :>
The beatings shall continue
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