Author Topic: Strange Threat Mechanics  (Read 2228 times)

Offline Kzzaman

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Strange Threat Mechanics
« on: May 10, 2015, 07:01:30 am »
So I have been playing a few games on Diff 6 and have been going well until suddenly my systems get wiped out by a threatfleet and I lose. I know the threatfleet attacks when it thinks it can win, but I have been finding it attacks during or immediately after a hacking attempt (I love hacking). I'm also not sure what the 'expect ai retaliation' message is either. Are the ships that start frantically streaming around the planet while I'm hacking new additions to the fleet? Another thing is that while they are attacking the threat stat either stays the same or goes up a bit, even though I am destroying it. If anyone could explain these things, that would be great.
Thanks in advance :)

Offline Chthon

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2015, 11:35:53 am »
During a hacking attempt, you are fighting and losing ships. The total strength of enemy forces in a system is rising. To top it off, some of your ships aren't even in your own system.

The enemy attacks your system with the threat fleet when it feels that it is sufficiently more powerful than you, and these hacking attempts are reducing your effective strength allowing the AI the opportunity.

Part of the game is managing the enemy threat, destroying it when needed, and holding it off when you can. If it is attacking you, you aren't really doing this correctly as it is finally getting strong enough to take you out.  This is a learning curve that you need to go through really. Trust me, there are many steep curves in this game.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2015, 01:37:50 pm »
Quote
I have been finding it attacks during or immediately after a hacking attempt (I love hacking)

3 remarks here :
- Have you been careful about the hacking level ? If the hacking level is below 0 when starting a hack the AI spawns huge amount of threat. AFAIK, hacking "response" can spawn in the system next to the "hacked" system. Those might just go attack your fleet. It mostly spawns where you're hacking though.
- Threat is different from ships at AI systems. Only a few of them are threat. You can get their approximate position from hovering the "threat" indicator if you have scout coverage to wherever they are.
- there might be something else near wherever you're hacking that spawns stuff. Ie a Raid Engine or a DG Lair. Those don't give notification when their world has not been scouted.


Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2015, 05:18:57 pm »
Kzzaman -- Kasnavada and Chthon gave some good tips, I'll just tell you more about hacking then and Threat.

Hacking

Hacking response spawns are indeed classed as Threat, that's why you're seeing the Threat tally climb even when you're blowing stuff up.  If you keep your fleet on the hacking planet cloaked so they don't see a target immediately when the spawn, you'll see them promptly run off to go stalk a planet of yours (or attack it, if they find one they think they can take out).

The AI has a number of things it can do in response to hacking (I won't spoil them all, the surprise is fun  >D), and one of the options it sounds like you might have seen is to send waves, either to that planet or to nearby ones.  You'll get a warning popup with a timer like a regular wave, though it will probably read "sending to ? ? ? ?" as it will likely go to an AI-held planet, which you won't have warp detection on unless you have a ship with that ability there (Sentinel Frigates, a few others).

The "expect AI retaliation" is the standard hacking response warning -- as you are hacking, the game spawns ships every so many seconds in a pulse.  That tells you the total strength of the ships that are about to spawn in that next pulse, so you have some warning of how bad things are going to get in a few seconds.  When the hack ends, it does one final LARGE pulse before it stops trying to kick you in the face.  This is the one that has the more complex warning of "Vigorous Response" or the like.

And yeah, the ships frantically streaming around are likely the hacking response, especially if they are popping out of random places on the map as well as the command station and guardposts, rather than coming through wormholes.

If you see ships coming out of the wormholes, especially if they are accompanied with Riot Control Starships, then you have probably gotten the attention of the Special Forces, presumably by hacking on a planet that the AI has designated as especially important.  CSGs, fabs, factories, starship constructors, etc will get the planet tagged this way.

BTW, if you mouse over the HAP tally at the top of the screen, you'll see a note about the expected AI hacking response for future hacks.  The more you hack, the nastier it gets.  Just how nasty "Very Low", "Moderate", "Forest Fire", etc actually is is affected by the difficulty level.  The ships that spawn tend to be Mk.III, but if you hack on a Mk.IV planet I believe I have seen Mk.IV ships spawn instead.  I forget what came out the last time I hacked on an AI Homeworld, I was too busy trying not to explode at the time.

Threat

When ships enter Threat mode, they'll pick a planet of yours (how smartly they choose depends on difficulty) and group up on an adjacent AI planet not too far from the wormhole to enter it.  If they accumulate enough strength within 30 minutes, or if enough of your strength is tied up in combat/more than 3 planets away, they'll attack.  So it's not uncommon to see a wave hit a planet, and the nearby Threat piggyback on the attack.  Difficulty level factors in -- I think it's at 7 where they will attack if they are about equal in strength to their target planet.  Below 7 they will attack even if they are weaker, making it less likely they actually build up enough to trash your planet.  Over 7, they wait until they are *stronger* by increasing amounts.

If they hit the 30 minute mark and haven't met the condition to attack, they switch to Threatfleet mode.  They will move back away from the front lines by 3-4 hops and park.  At that point, they are actively scanning for a new target, measuring the overall Threatfleet strength against different possible targets.  When they see something they like relative to their own strength, and see an opportunity (your fleet is away, etc), they'll move up to the front lines again, next to their chosen target, and begin staging the attack.  Since Threatfleet doesn't necessarily park on the same planet and ships don't all move at the same speed, it can take a little while for the whole army to arrive and the attack to start.  This is why it's good to keep a scout on all AI planets adjacent to yours so you can see when this happens.

A trick that I use to know when Threat/Threatfleet is on the move is to keep an eye on the Threat tally at the top of the screen.  If you see it start changing rapidly, but you're not doing anything that would cause ships to spawn or be destroyed, then that means that Threat is on the move.  There is a slight delay where the ships despawn and respawn as they pass through a wormhole, so if you are alert you'll see the number briefly dip as the ship stops existing in the world for a split second, then snap back up as it reappears on its new planet.  If you see the number "flickering" by a small amount, it's usually nothing to worry about (unless you missed the initial mass move to a staging point).  If you see the number bouncing around wildly and for a longer period of time, it's almost certainly a sign that a large number of Threat ships are on the move, and that usually means they're preparing for an attack.

One last useful UI thing -- if you mouseover the Threat tally, it'll show you the number of ships and their strength, as well as what planet they are on.  You only get that info for ships that are sitting on a planet you have scouting coverage on though, so the number of ships you see in the detailed notes may not match up with the total Threat tally.

Good luck!
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Offline Kzzaman

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2015, 06:18:41 pm »
Ah wow thanks for this, it's really helpful! Seems like I have been doing hacking all wrong- sending an assault transport with just the hacking module to hack something then causing all the ships generated to go and join the threatfleet instead of having me blow them all up. So what I really need to do is a good bit of threat raiding and make sure my hacks don't generate huge amounts of ships (I did see about 50 riot controls when I was hacking and advanced factory :P)

Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2015, 07:29:47 pm »
No problem, glad it cleared stuff up.  Also 50 Riots?  Yep, you got the attention of the cops there. Mass flocks of Riots are a dead giveaway that the SF have arrived, they are the main place the AI assigns those.  :)  You probably noticed already, but those guys will come swooping in like Batman whenever you molest a protected planet with non-scout units, not just from hacking.  The Hunter plot makes this extra !!fun!!, especially at intensity 4+.

Yeah, handling the hacking retaliation on-site as it spawns (after you have neutered but not captured the planet) is *usually* the safest move, and what I would recommend you get the hang of before trying alternative tricks.  It's how you'll probably want to do it 9 times out of 10.

Sometimes sneaking the Hacker in and letting the retaliatory response fall where it may can be useful, if it's somewhere you don't want to risk your fleet (like Sabotaging Raid Engines, clearing out OMD/Warhead Interceptors on Core worlds you plan to only sneak through, not fight, etc).  Cheap, fast hacks like Sabotage are safe to do this way, the AI has time to only spawn a relatively small number of ships, but doing more expensive, longer hacks that way can be dangerous if you're not prepared.  Just have to get a feel for how much danger there is, and how the response ships tend to behave, which will come with experience.

Anyway, welcome to the forums and to AI War, feel free to ask questions, and have fun!  :)
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Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2015, 08:45:34 pm »
Here's an odd question: could you use 0 HaP hacking to force the AI to deal with Dark Spire for you?

Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2015, 09:14:59 pm »
I haven't tried messing with the Dark Spire minor faction yet, but they do hate and attack basically everything, right?  If you already had some of their ships present on a planet, deliberately starting a hack on it to spawn Threat for them to chew up and feed to the Vengeance Generators might theoretically work... and 0 HAP would spawn a *lot* of stuff to feed to them.  Or actually overwhelm them.  I've never actually tried hacking in the red yet to see just how much stuff shows up to melt your face.  I imagine it's a metric assload though, if what I've been seeing pushing it a little but not quite that far is any indicator.

Unorthodox and dangerous idea with a potentially large payoff.

I like it.  >D
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2015, 10:15:31 pm »
No problem, glad it cleared stuff up.  Also 50 Riots?  Yep, you got the attention of the cops there. Mass flocks of Riots are a dead giveaway that the SF have arrived, they are the main place the AI assigns those.  :)
Afaik they are the only place the AI gets Riots, but I could just be assuming on that point.

Also Red.Queen, major negative hacking has a breaking point of its own where even that changes. it shows up in the logging if you somehow manage to do it (or abuse cheats to test and see what happens in such conditions ;) )
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 10:17:52 pm by Aklyon »

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2015, 11:17:59 pm »
I saw Riots every so often in the game I just finished, and I never hacked once. They were being used as generic reinforcements.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2015, 01:47:46 am »
I've seen riots in exo-waves, special forces.

The thing about the Dark Spire and the hacking has me intrigued =). But since hacking can also just EMP the planet, there is a limit to what you can do here, once emp-ed your hacker is toast.

Ah wow thanks for this, it's really helpful! Seems like I have been doing hacking all wrong- sending an assault transport with just the hacking module to hack something then causing all the ships generated to go and join the threatfleet instead of having me blow them all up. So what I really need to do is a good bit of threat raiding and make sure my hacks don't generate huge amounts of ships (I did see about 50 riot controls when I was hacking and advanced factory :P)

Usually when I hack, I occupy the planet I'm hacking with my fleet. If only to protect the hacking module. Two reasons for this: first, this generally attracts the special forces and I can beat them down. Then, most of the spawns generated by teh hack are directly on this planet. So basically I get most of them directly and the threat does not snowball.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2015, 06:17:08 am »
I saw Riots every so often in the game I just finished, and I never hacked once. They were being used as generic reinforcements.
They are. Hacking and SForces are entirely separated. And as Riots are mostly used in SForces, you'll see Riots even if you never hack.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Red.Queen

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Re: Strange Threat Mechanics
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2015, 02:06:50 pm »
Also Red.Queen, major negative hacking has a breaking point of its own where even that changes. it shows up in the logging if you somehow manage to do it (or abuse cheats to test and see what happens in such conditions ;) )

That sounds like 110% pure comedy gold...  Especially after seeing threads like Kahuna's ST hack where he nuked over 400K hostiles and that *wasn't* some ridiculous negative HAP hack IIRC.
Infiltrating hostile AI networks to rewrite reality.

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