Stealing Advanced Research Stations (Abuse)

[Haagenti]

1) You take an EtherJet and fly to a planet which has an Advanced Research Station on it
2) Grab the Station, and drag it back to one of your planets. It will still be an Enemy Station, as it only
changes hands when the planet where it is at changes hands.
3) Build a Colony Ship at your own planet
4) Delete your Orbital Command Station at that planet
5) Build a new Orbital Command Station at that planet
6) Once it is finished, the planet "changes hands" and the Advanced Research Station will be yours

You don't have to capture the planet it originally is on (for 20 AI Advance)
You don't have to fight for it if the enemy cannot detect your cloaked Etherjet.
You can even steal the ARS from under a forcefield.

It's quite easy to get most ARSs in a game for little effort.

Solution: it should be impossible to tractor enemy ARSs through a wormhole.

And don't blame me, blame the AI for inspiring me. It EtherJetted my Research Station through a wormhole, and dragged it to a Special Forces Outpost which killed it in seconds.

[Admiral]

Oh, I love it. LOVE IT!!! So mean, so minty!

Good luck with that strategy with any AI that puts cloaking detectors at wormholes. All the games I use seem to have evil AIs in that way.

Does anyone else think that an EtherJet is a Hewlett-Packard product?

Cheers!

[Revenantus]

Haha, that's hilarious, I had no idea it was possible to tractor ARSs.

If only this worked with Ion Cannons...

[Haagenti]

Oh, I love it. LOVE IT!!! So mean, so minty!

Good luck with that strategy with any AI that puts cloaking detectors at wormholes. All the games I use seem to have evil AIs in that way.

In my current level 8 game I started with parasites, and one of the AIs has all the Cloaking stuff. Every raid of that AI is a party, I lose no ships and capture most of theirs: they basically fly up and get captured. I have had to build multiple energy stations at each planet to maintain my massive fleets of Planes, Etherjets, Raptors and especially Autocannons. I think I have 1000 Autocannons by now. I'm thinking about moving the AI Activity level up to II, just so they'll bring me shiny level II toys to play with.

I send a fleet of several hundred fully disposable Autocannons through a gate, they get decloaked, enemy tractor turrets grab a bunch of them, then send a few dozen Etherjets which are not tractored as all tractor turrets are full. Then move the remainder to the next gate. You have to do the same thing on the way back.

Does anyone else think that an EtherJet is a Hewlett-Packard product?

I have this association with Ether sniffing every time I see them  

[Revenantus]

While it seems a bit overpowered as it stands, the ability to steal certain auxiliary structures from the AI could be a pretty cool feature.

I could see myself launching raids to steal a Core Generator (+100k Energy), or perfectly efficient Core Manufactory (-4 for +4). Perhaps even an AI Communications Relay, that when tugged away causes an increase in the strength of AI waves, but gathers scout intel on adjacent AI systems.

A big, slow, capital tugship could facilitate this sort of action.

I'd certainly like to be able to reposition my captured Ion Cannons and Advanced Factories, obviously there'd have to be some massive penalty for doing so. Maybe the tugship being very expensive, fragile and a high priority target would suffice. Ion Cannons would presumably have to be captured before being moved, else they would simply destroy the tugship.

I'd also quite like to see an AI scouting behaviour. It could send out Core Scouts to identify systems with high priority targets and preferentially direct its forces towards those.

[Haagenti]

The problem with such a tugship would be that I would empty the system and only then bring in the tug. Being able to transport an Ion Cannon to a location of my choice would be an enormous advantage. I like the other ideas of stealable structures such as Big Generators, and Efficient Manufactories.

And I agree that I'd love to see a more active AI: at this moment its raids are somewhat lacking. Defense is too easy once you have your defences up and running. Ideas include:
- have some raids come in unannounced
- have some raids come in through "scorched earth" or recolonizing of planets, so that you cannot permanently funnel all raids into one killzone system
- occasional very big raids
- raids occasionally preceded by an AI missile
- Diversionary raids of only 1 ship, combined by e.g. 10 raids at the same time
- raids that teleport directly into one of your system (perhaps to a cloaked mobile warpgate that slowly infiltrates your systems?)
- raids that will enter a system, kill the metal/crystal and then move on to another of your planets instead of bashing its head against a fleet waiting for it
- changing raids: the AI could learn that if 7 successive assaults with parasites at system X won't work because my fighters are killing them, a change of strategy may be necessary: either raid a different system, or send bombers. Or that if n parasites fail, wait a while and send 2n parasites.

[Admiral]

And I agree that I'd love to see a more active AI: at this moment its raids are somewhat lacking. Defense is too easy once you have your defences up and running. Ideas include:

I like a more active, and varied AI.

With all your ideas (at least 9) X could make the AI use one of these per difficultly level above 1, so that AI 7 would pick (at the start of the game) six random advanced annoying offensive things (or even pre-defined per level) and throw them at you throughout the game, suitably modified by AI Progress.

Cheers!

[Revenantus]

- have some raids come in unannounced

How about on difficulty 7 and up all raids are unannounced, except those raids targeting systems in which you have an Advanced Warp Sensor. That would make that particular structure hugely more valuable.

- occasional very big raids

I think His Xness was considering having the AI launch raiding parties from systems where the number of garrisoned ships had become too great. This would serve to create larger raids that would become increasingly likely as the game went on.

- raids occasionally preceded by an AI missile

I like this idea, if the AI detects a valuable system with a large number of turrets defending the wormhole it could launch a lightning missile to destroy them before sending ships through. Perhaps it could also use scouts to detect dense clusters of space docks and/or generators and attempt to destroy those using missiles.

I'd also been thinking about a Harder AI type that periodically deploys nuclear missiles, there could be some clue as to where it is going to be launched from to give the player a chance to intercept it.

- changing raids: the AI could learn that if 7 successive assaults with parasites at system X won't work because my fighters are killing them, a change of strategy may be necessary: either raid a different system, or send bombers. Or that if n parasites fail, wait a while and send 2n parasites.

Agreed, it would be interesting if the AI 'learned' the locations/strengths of your defenses and responded appropriately.

What if on higher difficulties the AI actually started to reconstruct the destroyed warp gates in systems it still controlled? Say 30 minutes reconstruction time. It would make the slightly bizarre, 'Destroy all but one warp gate', strategy a bit less viable.

EDIT:

The problem with such a tugship would be that I would empty the system and only then bring in the tug.

That would actually be the point of it. If the player wanted to steal structures from AI territory, without increasing the AI progress level, then the tugship would have to be defended, the player would also have to maintain a force at the actual wormhole, or wormholes if deeper in AI space, to ensure safe passage for the tugship, else too many AI ships/turrets respawn and damage its fragile hull.

I agree that moving Ion Cannons is a bit dubious, maybe they should remain stationary.

[Konami]

This was an interesting read, I also like the idea of stealing stuff from the ai. I think the more options to actually do hit and run tactics the better, rather having to always have a planet change ownership, to get what you want but the more risk involve the better.

So I was thinking why not go down the old red alert path and have fake structures? While I can foresee that this might get too annoying but could also be amusing to see someone use a "tugship" and go to all the effort to capture something only to find out that it was fake. Perhaps even have it explode while near ships causing damage obviously or if moved under a forcefield, this combined by mocking laughter from the ai after perhaps. Also adding an option to set up bait for the ai? Be nice to have a moment of tension as you wait for the ai to move a bomb or the old "trojan horse" into their base while your mouse is hovering over the detonate or release button. I suppose with this would come even more focus on intel and there would have to be logical benefits for the ai to be taking these structures in the in the first place. Maybe giving a time limit for the player to recapture or destroy what the ai stole, else it would be able learn what was fake or intel in general. Then it would make more sense for them to be moving it under defences, etc.  

Next up a new ship type: Scarecrow, not sure if this has been suggested already. however I believe someone said to maybe add a mimic ship? Well this would pretty much be able to minic what a ship looked like that's already unlocked but to be more used as a distraction/drawing fire from the real threat. Problem would be the damage they inflict, if they didn't really do much damage a player could tell straight away that their not much of a threat. Well just an idea perhaps someone else can expand on it.  

Liked the "AI Communications Relay" suggested by Revenantus. Perhaps taking it would reveal all fake units and structures in a adjacent AI systems as well.

Well just a few ideas I thought I would throw out there.

[Konami]

Starting to think that the whole trap idea would be a little elaborate, however wouldn't even have to be structures. How how about being able to make a trap look like a science ship, if a real one is captured the ai gains another ship type after certain amount of time unless intercepted? Well I don't know just think it would be interesting to have a few more sneaky methods for causing damage to the ai or a certain target and drawing missile fire if that's implemented more.

[Revenantus]

Starting to think that the whole trap idea would be a little elaborate, however wouldn't even have to be structures. How how about being able to make a trap look like a science ship, if a real one is captured the ai gains another ship type after certain amount of time unless intercepted? Well I don't know just think it would be interesting to have a few more sneaky methods for causing damage to the ai or a certain target and drawing missile fire if that's implemented more.

I'm a bit concerned about the trap idea in that I'm not really sure where it fits in terms of gameplay. We'd firstly need a reason for the AI to be dragging potentially dangerous human ships towards its own valuable structures, and then ultimately, how much damage is a single bomb really going to do to the AI? Currently, EtherJet Tractors will drag your ships (including science labs) towards Special Forces Command Posts, so a trap could potentially destroy one of those, but this seems like an incredibly elaborate method of accomplishing something that a relatively small group of cruisers could manage.

I think you're right that the AI should itself create a sort of trap, but this would be better done by having the AI strategically place cloaked mines around its own valuable structures, including the 'Area Mine' (essentially a large mine that does AoE damage) that's in development by His Xness. As far as I know the AI currently only places its mines at wormholes so this would be an interesting new behaviour. Accidently running a 'Tugship' into a minefield whilst attempting to retrieve a valuable structure would be a serious risk.

The Scarecrow ship could be interesting, though I see it as an AI only ship limited to a special 'Trickster' AI.

In terms of attracting Missile Fire there's a smaller 'Shield Ship' in development. It essentially functions like a smaller version of the Tech III forcefield so it would serve a similar purpose to what you're suggesting. I think mobile versions of the counter turrets have also been considered. A third option could be a type of heavily armored magnet ship that attracts enemy shell and missile based fire towards itself.

[Konami]

I'm a bit concerned about the trap idea in that I'm not really sure where it fits in terms of gameplay. We'd firstly need a reason for the AI to be dragging potentially dangerous human ships towards its own valuable structures, and then ultimately, how much damage is a single bomb really going to do to the AI? Currently, EtherJet Tractors will drag your ships (including science labs) towards Special Forces Command Posts, so a trap could potentially destroy one of those, but this seems like an incredibly elaborate method of accomplishing something that a relatively small group of cruisers could manage.

I think you're right that the AI should itself create a sort of trap, but this would be better done by having the AI strategically place cloaked mines around its own valuable structures, including the 'Area Mine' (essentially a large mine that does AoE damage) that's in development by His Xness. As far as I know the AI currently only places its mines at wormholes so this would be an interesting new behaviour. Accidently running a 'Tugship' into a minefield whilst attempting to retrieve a valuable structure would be a serious risk.

Yeah after reflection probably wouldn't end up being much point to it, again just feel more varied methods to taking out stuff would be appealing. It probably prove to be rather redundant method of destroying stuff. Though people have already said that some worlds get filled up with too many ships at times and become too hard to beat but believe there are hopes to have the ai send out surplus ships from these worlds anyway.   

The Scarecrow ship could be interesting, though I see it as an AI only ship limited to a special 'Trickster' AI.

Agreed, suppose probably needs a bit more thought to it anyway.

In terms of attracting Missile Fire there's a smaller 'Shield Ship' in development. It essentially functions like a smaller version of the Tech III forcefield so it would serve a similar purpose to what you're suggesting. I think mobile versions of the counter turrets have also been considered. A third option could be a type of heavily armored magnet ship that attracts enemy shell and missile based fire towards itself.

Sounds good to me, apologies then. 

[x4000]

First off:  for the advanced research station and other AI structures being grapple-able, that's something I will definitely fix.  Added to my list.  For having some sort of larger space-tug type thing for pulling those, maybe that could work in an expansion, but in general I want to have players capture planets in order to get things like that.  That adds to the overall strategy, since territory and AI Progress increases come with any capturable ship you go for.

[x4000]

- have some raids come in unannounced

How about on difficulty 7 and up all raids are unannounced, except those raids targeting systems in which you have an Advanced Warp Sensor. That would make that particular structure hugely more valuable.

Actually, the game used to work like this, but then everyone always just used the advanced warp sensor as their very first unlock.  It made the advanced warp sensor required, and thus kind of a pointless knowledge tax.  Hence why I went with the current system, which requires less micromanagement (checking destroyed advanced sensors and rebuilding if need be), etc.  There's been some discussion on other threads about unannounced raids, and in general that's not something I want to do.

I've added this to my list for being an AI Modifier, basically exactly as you described it, though.  For people who want to play in that style, I think it could be cool.

- occasional very big raids

I think His Xness was considering having the AI launch raiding parties from systems where the number of garrisoned ships had become too great. This would serve to create larger raids that would become increasingly likely as the game went on.

Yeah, that's on the list, hopefully for today, actually.  We shall see.

- raids occasionally preceded by an AI missile

I like this idea, if the AI detects a valuable system with a large number of turrets defending the wormhole it could launch a lightning missile to destroy them before sending ships through. Perhaps it could also use scouts to detect dense clusters of space docks and/or generators and attempt to destroy those using missiles.

I'd also been thinking about a Harder AI type that periodically deploys nuclear missiles, there could be some clue as to where it is going to be launched from to give the player a chance to intercept it.

Could be... the main thing is that so far I've been treating missiles as a unique human ship, versus the core ships are the unique AI ships.  I've added a topic for this here if people want to discuss it more.

- changing raids: the AI could learn that if 7 successive assaults with parasites at system X won't work because my fighters are killing them, a change of strategy may be necessary: either raid a different system, or send bombers. Or that if n parasites fail, wait a while and send 2n parasites.

Agreed, it would be interesting if the AI 'learned' the locations/strengths of your defenses and responded appropriately.

I can add that to the analysis.  Right now it is more randomized, since often surprise is a great asset and just because something didn't work once doesn't mean that it might not work the next time.  I've added this to the future DLC list: 

What if on higher difficulties the AI actually started to reconstruct the destroyed warp gates in systems it still controlled? Say 30 minutes reconstruction time. It would make the slightly bizarre, 'Destroy all but one warp gate', strategy a bit less viable.

I like this, but only as a potential AI modifier.  Added to the future DLC list:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,441.0.html

- Diversionary raids of only 1 ship, combined by e.g. 10 raids at the same time

Very cool, added to the future DLC list:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,442.0.html

- raids that teleport directly into one of your system (perhaps to a cloaked mobile warpgate that slowly infiltrates your systems?)

I have some stuff along these lines (about AI deep penetration into your territory) planned for the first expansion.  I doubt we'll see more of that until then.

- raids that will enter a system, kill the metal/crystal and then move on to another of your planets instead of bashing its head against a fleet waiting for it

Yes, this is a very good point.  I once had retreat logic built into the game, but the AI has since evolved a lot and I took that out.  I definitely need to add that back in.  Added to the short-term list:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,443.0.html

[x4000]

Next up a new ship type: Scarecrow, not sure if this has been suggested already. however I believe someone said to maybe add a mimic ship? Well this would pretty much be able to minic what a ship looked like that's already unlocked but to be more used as a distraction/drawing fire from the real threat. Problem would be the damage they inflict, if they didn't really do much damage a player could tell straight away that their not much of a threat. Well just an idea perhaps someone else can expand on it.

Very cool idea.  I've added that to the expansions list:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,444.0.html  It will certainly need a lot of testing and balancing, I think.