Author Topic: Starting the game with more resources?  (Read 3315 times)

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2013, 11:03:52 pm »
I'm fine with 200k/200k, as long as it's not undermining some meticulously laid out early game threat, which to my knowledge does not exist. There's no sense in dragging out dead space to watch turrets build right?

Offline Aeson

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2013, 11:38:11 pm »
I think the problem is more one of how much stuff you try to build in parallel, and how many engineers you allow to help out with construction work. I find that, with current starting resources, I can usually have five or ten turrets of various types under construction while my Spacedock churns out Mark I triangle ships without significant slowdown from lacking resources under the current system, without upgrading harvesters. The problem is more one of convenience - it's easier for me to place a hundred turrets all at once than to put down five now, then another ten a little later, then another group after that, and so on. As such, in the early game if you like to get your homeworld defenses up early (as a precaution learned from the past versions with their hard early game, or for convenience before you forget you didn't put down any defenses and get a wave warning while your fleet is on the other side of the galaxy, or whatever), I expect that you'd place down most of the defenses you intend to protect your homeworld for at least the next hour of the game all at once. Doing this rapidly drains your initial resource reserve, and stalls construction, making it feel like you don't have enough resources early on. With a more limited construction approach (such as 'build fleet first, then build defenses slowly'), you don't run out of resources nearly as fast.

I will admit, though, that I prefer to order the construction of at least my initial homeworld defenses at the start of the game in parallel with my fleet build-up, and simply put up with the out-of-resources work stoppages or upgrade to better harvesters, because that way there I cannot forget to have at least some minimal defenses on my homeworld for when I sent my fleet far away and wasn't paying attention to wave warnings, or just lost my fleet doing something else, or anything like that. Plus, even though I could stagger the defense construction to speed the build of parts of it, I usually wouldn't because it takes more attention to current resource balances and income than I care for. I could do it, and sometimes I do, but not usually.


In short, I think that the main cause of the feeling of lacking early game resources is that most people (myself included) try to build too much stuff in parallel at game start. That isn't something that an increased initial resource stockpile will solve unless it becomes a lot larger.


Now, since I brought up initial homeworld defenses - I usually place down 20 Basic, 20 Laser, 20 MLRS, 20 Missile, and 5 tractor beam turrets for a single-wormhole homeworld as early game defenses, and that increases by about 10 of each of the aformentioned weapon turrets and 5 tractor beam turrets per additional wormhole (within limits - if there are more than four wormholes leading into my homeworld, I'll guard the three or four closest to my command station and put 20 Basic/Laser/MLRS/Missile turrets at the command station instead of 10). For the single-wormhole case, this works out to about 3500 metal and 3000 crystal per second until my turrets complete - before accounting for ships coming out the the Spacedock and any engineer construction assistance costs. So if we assume that we get 6 metal and seven crystal harvesters (I usually have more crystal nodes than metal nodes, while Diazo's test results seem to say it's an even split, so I'm going with a slight skew in favor of crystals), we have a resource income of 420/480/630 metal per second, and 440/510/685 crystal per second, with the appropriate harvester I/II/III research. So if we were to increase the starting resource pool just to allow my initial defense build for a single-wormhole homeworld, the stockpile would need to make up for a missing 3100 metal/second and 2500 crystal/second for the first 30 seconds of the game (assuming Mark I harvesters). The current 20,000 of each would last for about the first 10 seconds of the game, in this situation, not including any fleet construction I might be trying in parallel (which in all honesty is usually a relatively negligible cost - the average resources drained per second over the course of a fleet build-up off of one Spacedock are 79 metal per second and 61 crystal per second, before including engineers, and if I'm not mistaken a pair of Mark II engineers should increase that cost by a factor of about five, leaving the fleet build within income constraints for the early game as long as there isn't too much parallel turret construction going on at the same time).

So, this really begs the questions of how much homeworld defense do I really need to build in the early game and how early I should be building it. In the games I play (AIs at 6 or 7, almost any non-red AI), the answer to how much and how early is essentially "none until after the fleet build is finished, and then start with the setup given previously", as I usually don't see a wave until after a sufficient amount of the fleet has built to fight it off without such catastrophic losses that I spend the next wave interval rebuilding the fleet. However, I like to build homeworld defenses at the start, because at least until my fleet has built out I don't really have anything better to do, and I've forgotten about defenses until seeing the home command station under attack warning in the past when I put off the defense build-up.

Based on the above, I would need roughly 100,000 of each resource in the starting stockpile to fully build out my initial defenses and my Mark I triangle fleet, assuming a single-wormhole homeworld.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 11:41:33 pm by Aeson »

Offline Diazo

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2013, 11:57:40 pm »
Okay.

For what it is worth, quick test game.

At the 3minute, 10 second mark I had finished building:
3x Mk FF
Cap Mk 1 Figher
50x Mk I Missile Turret

and had queued up my scouts for construction to start scouting.

One thing this test made me realize, I usually run the first hour of the game at +3 game speed, then as I have more planets and more defenses to worry about by then I play the rest of the game at normal speed, boosting the speed if I'm waiting on a big build of some sort (fort, high mark starship, etc.) until that is done.

Actually, I wonder if making the game speed controls known might be a better solution?

Boosting the starting resources to 100k of each will help, but the start of the game is the time when dozens of units get queue up for construction at once, I don't think that ever happens again in the game. It is really a build time issue that causes the lag at game start and game speed would speed that up.


Heh, queuing up everything to build and then sticking the game speed at +10 make it about 55 seconds of real-time to reach the 3:10 mark so I could start building scouts.

D.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2013, 02:11:01 am »
I think 100k of each is a good start, but I'd be fine with even more than that.

Basically, at the beginning of the game I find myself popping a Dist. Node anyway, but this takes some of the risk out of that, the tediousness, and of course the AIP.

I think the benefit of the "fast start" disappears pretty quickly, it's just a little push to get the ball rolling.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2013, 11:19:49 am »
Actually, I wonder if making the game speed controls known might be a better solution?
They're mentioned in the tutorial, iirc.

Quote
Boosting the starting resources to 100k of each will help, but the start of the game is the time when dozens of units get queue up for construction at once, I don't think that ever happens again in the game. It is really a build time issue that causes the lag at game start and game speed would speed that up.
Yea, I think you and the others may be on to something there.  That the very-early-game "netflix effect" isn't so much because you lack resources, just that there's a period of time between queuing construction and having something you can work with.  That is exacerbated by resource shortages, of course, if they occur.

But I think this build-time-related effect during startup isn't really a significant problem, because:

1) If you're an experienced player, you know about the game speed controls, and while by mid-game running sim cycles above normal speed quickly saturates most CPUs (such that continuing to crank up the +speed ceases to have an effect on the relation between game-time and wall-clock-time), during _early-game_ running above normal speed actually does quite well.  Particularly if you drop the performance profile to Extremely Low during that time (combining that with +10 can have game-minutes flying by in wall-clock-seconds, during the early game).  Obviously it'd be nice if you didn't have to do this, but the workaround is there.

2) If you're a new player who doesn't know about the game speed stuff (or doesn't realize it can be applied for this kind of purpose), then you probably aren't feeling the "netflix effect", you're probably being really cautious because you don't know if the AI is going to jump out and eat you in the first 5 minutes of the game ;)  In general, you've got a higher density of non-trivial mental tasks going on, so the fact that the very early game has that "lull" isn't really a bad thing.



There've been suggestions on having the player start with a cap of fighters & bombers, etc: I'd really rather avoid prepopulating any military units because:
1) For new players, I want to make absolutely _certain_ they know how to build units before they get into the game at all.  If they start with a military force they may just throw that around and not know how to replace it when it's gone.  This assumes gratuitous dismissal of tutorial, but that happens.
2) For everyone, I don't want to overly slant "this is what you should build".  There's a lot of different options in what to build first, and what to use as your early units (though I can't think why you wouldn't build fighters, I admit), etc.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2013, 11:31:10 am »
This vaguely reminded me of a setting I've pondered.  What if we could turn on Queue New Structures, which changed it from instead of building all new structures at once, build them in groups to completion before beginning the next.  This way I could lay out my entire opening defense in my dead time, and not need to micro powering the buildings on/off to avoid tanking my economy so my military doesn't build.  I thought a setting for "build X at a time" would work best, but now that I think about it, it could be just a straight check box that functioned dynamically to only work on enough structures to put your economy at +0.  The structures would always be completed FIFO, so there isn't any fancy logic really, just turn on structures in order until economy goes negative, back off one.

Offline Aeson

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2013, 11:44:43 am »
I can think of one situation where I wouldn't want to build fighters:  pure starship fleet games (as in, never build any vessel capable of crossing wormholes that isn't a starship). Not the most practical of situations, but currently I can field 17 of some combination of flagships, bomber starships, plasma siege starships, leech starships, spire starships, and zenith starships, or replace one of those with three riot control or two raid starhips (or any other combination you want to come up with). If I started with a cap of fighters, I'd lose the ability to field one of the 17 starships with high energy requirements, and might lose one or two of the lower energy requirement starships as well. At least, assuming I don't have any extra energy-boosting structures on the homeworld. Not that scrapping a cap of fighters is a big deal or anything, but it is one situation in which I would not want to build fighters.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2013, 11:57:03 am »
There've been suggestions on having the player start with a cap of fighters & bombers, etc: I'd really rather avoid prepopulating any military units because:
1) For new players, I want to make absolutely _certain_ they know how to build units before they get into the game at all.  If they start with a military force they may just throw that around and not know how to replace it when it's gone.  This assumes gratuitous dismissal of tutorial, but that happens.
2) For everyone, I don't want to overly slant "this is what you should build".  There's a lot of different options in what to build first, and what to use as your early units (though I can't think why you wouldn't build fighters, I admit), etc.

I was the one (or one of) the ones who made that suggestion, but it was more an offhand "this is the only way I can think of to avoid that game-start lull" by giving the player units already built.

I agree it is not a good thing as that is by default going to narrows the strategies players try. Whether it is from an inexperience standpoint "Oh, I'm given these units? These must be my primary units" to a min/max thing "Oh, I get these units for free, I'm going to build my early game strategy around them" it limits what the player tries.

However, it is still the only way to get around that game-start-lull, but I'd rather have the game-start lull then any military units pre-built.

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2013, 11:57:15 am »
This vaguely reminded me of a setting I've pondered.  What if we could turn on Queue New Structures, which changed it from instead of building all new structures at once, build them in groups to completion before beginning the next.  This way I could lay out my entire opening defense in my dead time, and not need to micro powering the buildings on/off to avoid tanking my economy so my military doesn't build.  I thought a setting for "build X at a time" would work best, but now that I think about it, it could be just a straight check box that functioned dynamically to only work on enough structures to put your economy at +0.  The structures would always be completed FIFO, so there isn't any fancy logic really, just turn on structures in order until economy goes negative, back off one.
Yea, I've spent a lot of time thinking about ways to let players actually run "balanced" economies, so you can control how much gets spent where on a macro level, though they generally wind up sounding excessively complicated (more from the player's perspective than from mine).

One challenge is that +0 is not necessarily the goal: if you're sitting on 500k of each resource you may want it to dip into that.  So presumably rather than simply "on/off" you could set it to "stop spending on placed structures when income is < X" or "spend no more than X on placed structures per second".  And then you'd want a separate setting for what to spend on build queues.   And then you'd want a separate setting for what to spend on repairs.  And then you might want separate controls for how much metal and how much crystal, etc.

But yes, it would be naturally FIFO for placed-structures due to how processing is done, though potentially the per-planet processing order might cause everything on one planet to be built before anything on another planet (regardless of placement order).


Anyway, this is actually relevant to the thread topic: if the problem is more one of perception (how long it takes to get any part of the setup really going) this sort of thing can help.  Though it'd definitely be something you wouldn't use until you were pretty familiar with the game, as otherwise you'd run into a lot of "why isn't spending on X happening?" situations.  As it is, you'd probably run into that anyway.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Starting the game with more resources?
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2013, 12:44:00 pm »
I'll pop the idea up on mantis so it doesn't get lost.  I fleshed it out a little more.