Starting the game with more resources?

[Wingflier]

We had this discussion awhile ago, but I just want to bring up a key point:  Starting the game with so few resources, especially on higher difficulties, can make it very tough.  It forces the player to invest in higher MK Harvesters quickly.  Even on lower difficulties, having to alt-tab to Facebook while you wait for your starting base/army/defenses to build is pretty monotonous.

If I remember, we pretty much all agreed that upping the starting resources would be a good step for the game.  It might solve some of the economic balance concerns we're seeing, by allowing the player different options than having to simply upgrade his Harvesters quickly in order to keep up early production.

Perhaps we could try it for a beta update?

[Mánagarmr]

I remember that discussion. Particularly because I was the one who initially suggested simply upping the starting pool, because it would solve the initial buildup without increasing resource flow later in the game.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I have some concerns about the impact on new players, but basically you generally lose your first game either way, so it's not a huge problem if you lose because you didn't realize you couldn't sustain initial spending, etc.

So, what's a good starting stockpile?

[LaughingThesaurus]

I've started and not completed enough games of 7/7 to know that, on that setting (with no minor factions or plots), it's pretty easy to get up an early defense and foothold with the starting cash you get there. Is it a possibility to give the player more starting resources on higher AI difficulty settings only? Furthermore, is there more to a 7/7 game, like adding minor factions, that makes an initial defense very difficult to impossible that I just don't know about?

[Diazo]

That raises the question of what size fleet should you have the resources for at start?

What about "what I build before sending scouts out?"

For me, that is 3x additional Mk I FFs on my home command, cap of Fighter Mk Is and 50x Missile Turret Mk Is before I even queue the scouts to build.

Alternatively, this is really about harvester throughput. Even on a single HW start, it only takes a few minutes for your starting resources to not matter any more as you've already produced several times more then what you start the game with.

What about boosting harvester production to 25/35/55 from 20/30/55?

I'm starting to find that except in a low-aip game (which is admittedly my normal game type), harvester IIIs are almost mandatory. When a wave hits you are going to lose defensive turrets and some ships, in a mid to high AIP game replacing 30 turrets is not uncommon for me after a wave. (I play lattice maps, I don't have the leisure of only having to defend a single wormhole so even an "average" wave stays alive to fight for a few minutes.)

If I want to sustain offensive actions at the same time, I am absolutely sucking resources down at a pretty crazy rate.

D.

edit: Posted from work, will look at actual numbers when I get home.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Diazo, don't you usually play on the more harsh difficulties?

[Diazo]

Yes I do.

That is why I asked the question about "What fleet size should starting resources give you?" though.

My first thought "What do I build before sending scouts out?", which I then listed.

Almost certainly overkill, but that's a holdover from many patches ago when you could actually get a significant number of AI ships warping into your home system by the 3 minute mark. I don't think that can happen any more, but its not like defenses on your home system are ever a bad idea.

Also why I commented about being at work, I'm going to add actual numbers to my post once I have access to the game when I get home in a couple hours.

D.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Oh right, okay. I was kind of going by the logic of 'what do you really need to survive based on the difficulty?' but I can see your approach now. Actually, it makes me think that just enough resources to build your way up to a reasonably good attacking fleet and reasonably good defense is ideal just because then it cuts out the early game wait for stuff. If there were actually a prominent threat at 10 AIP, then keeping the resources more tightly limited would make sense. The fact is that there isn't really tension. It's just you, sitting there, waiting for ships to build and analyzing scout data and possibly watching netflix.

...which leads me off topic, to an image of the commander actually sitting back watching some good old Season 1 of Heroes while the tactical display is pulled up.

[keith.lamothe]

...which leads me off topic, to an image of the commander actually sitting back watching some good old Season 1 of Heroes while the tactical display is pulled up.

Streaming services were among the first hit during the AI attack.

[Oralordos]

...which leads me off topic, to an image of the commander actually sitting back watching some good old Season 1 of Heroes while the tactical display is pulled up.

Streaming services were among the first hit during the AI attack.

NOOOOOOO. The AI must die!

[LaughingThesaurus]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I hope the humans saved backups.

[Winge]

...which leads me off topic, to an image of the commander actually sitting back watching some good old Season 1 of Heroes while the tactical display is pulled up.

Streaming services were among the first hit during the AI attack.

Odd.  I would think that the AI would leave those alone, as the distraction could prove beneficial during a takeover.

More on topic:  right now, the player starts with 20,000 of each.  I would try something in between 30,000 and 50,000 for starters.  In terms of %s, that is a huge change, but it's still much less than a cap of starships.

[Diazo]

Okay, I've got the game, and numbers, in front of me.

Starting 10 test games, it looks like you get 12.5 resource nodes in your home system.  Half the tests had 12, half had 13.

The split between metal and crystal was pretty consistently spread out also with a min of 5 and max of 8 of each kind of harvester. I remember seeing a 9/4 split in one of my previous games, but 8 was the max that came up in the test.

I'm going to combine metal and crystal for simplicities sake and just deal with "resources".

Now, you do start with the same resource pool regardless of difficulty level (20,000 of each), but starting at difficulty 6 and going up by 1 with difficulty (2 @ diff 7, 3@8, 4@9, 5@10), you get Home Settlements which produce 25 metal and crystal each. So the 5 Home Settlements at diff 10 mean you have 125 more of each resource per second as compared to diff 5 with no Home Settlements.

Now, the reason I did all that, starting pool vs. generated resources.

Your starting pool is 40,000 resources, at diff 7 with 12.5 resource nodes, your income is 900 resources per second with Mk I harvesters. That means it takes only 45 seconds to generate another 40,000 resources and double your total resources available.

With Mk III harvesters in the same setup, it only takes 30 seconds to generate 40,000 resources.

Which means we have a perception issue, if it takes less then a minute to generate your starting pool of resources, the size of your starting pool means nothing it terms of the "netflix effect" that has been mentioned in the thread.

Rather, we are now talking about build times which is totally different subject.

And because I mentioned it up-thread, my "starting build":
3x Mk I FFs: 24,000x3= 72,000 resources
cap Mk I fighters (normal): 400x96= 38,400 resources
50x Missile Turret Mk I: 2,200x50=110,000 resources

for a total 220,400 resources, or five and a half times the current resource starting cap. At 45 seconds per starting resource cap, that is still only 3 minutes and 20 seconds to generate those resources.

Even if you are not as worried about me as defense:
cap Mk I fighters (normal): 400x96= 38,400 resources
cap Mk I bombers: 1,600x96= 153,600 resources

for a total of 192,000 resources, which is a little under five times the starting resource cap, so call it 3 minutes to generate those resources.

AI War games last hours, if we are serious about increasing the starting resource pool, I'm thinking we need to look at 100,000 metal and crystal. Even that takes only 3 minutes 30 seconds to generate under the diff 7 system with Mk I harvesters as I outlined above.

If the "game-start" lull is really that bad, I'd rather see us get a cap of Mk I fighters and bombers spawn on game start like our other structures do. That way we have an offensive fleet the second the game starts. It still leaves us with no scouts or scouted systems so I don't think it would be too broken.

Wow, wall of text time?

TL;DR: Starting resources need to go to 100,00 metal and crystal to have any noticeable effect on the game. (IMO)

D.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm fine with 100k m + 100k c, or even 200k of each.  As you say, we're talking a difference of minutes here.

[TechSY730]

If it is an issue of very early game pacing, a boost of initial resources may help with that.

However, past very early game, initial resources don't really matter unless those initial resources were buffed to something absurd (like 999k or something).
As pointed out before, two big things come into play.

1. You gather resources somewhat quickly. Even 200k of m+c doesn't take too long too accumulate even with only Mk. I harvesters.
2. Build times are also a big bottleneck. For pretty much anything above Mk. I fleet ships and maybe Mk. II fleet ships, your "time bottleneck" in the early game will be build times. And even then, that is assuming you have a ton of engineers assisting your queues. With only a few engineers, not even Mk. II fleet ship production will be able to keep up with your economy.

TBH, what "drags" the very early game out for me is less about getting a fleet ready, and much more about positioning my defenses and management stuff (rally points, initial scouting, choosing first unlocks, per-planet control options for the home and core worlds). Most of my time early game is actually spent positioning turrets and forcefields, which although important, isn't exactly fun for me.


So in other words, even if I started with 999k resources, I would still find the very early game somewhat slow for me.