Starting Resources: Too Few? [4.65]

[zebramatt]

Would I be alone in thinking that perhaps the 20k+ metal and crystal I start a solo game with, is a tad too few?

I end up having to really tediously manage what I build, in what order, for the first twenty minutes; or just bung it all down and go do something else for half an hour.

I've taken to automatically unlocking new harvesters straight out the gate every time to try to ease the grind a little.

Certainly it feels like I'm more at risk whilst I struggle to get everything up - but given the passiveness of the AI in the opening hour it leads to little more than frustration, as the fleet ships for my first incursion into enemy territory struggle to build whilst the turrets are going up around my home wormhole(s).

Sure, I'm sure I'll get the swing of it eventually but for the purposes of accessibility, something in the 60k region would ease my turmoil no end!

[hullu]

Good catch, I always struggle with that but never yet kind of put it to words inside my head. Yes it's annoying. The first 30-60mins of the game is very slow since it's basically just waiting for turrets/fleet.

I would actually take it further than 60k... considering even if you plop a distribution node from an immediate neighbour you still barely get your starting economy up with that 350-400k...

[Varone]

I'm not sure, you definatley can't build turrets AND expect to build a fleet as well. I usually spend maybe 1-2 mins scouting then 5 mins building a fleet then i take my first planet around the 15min mark. Definatley no waiting around, i find the starting resources just fine to do that. I don't even build turrets until i have around 4 planets, too costly.

[Wingflier]

Good resource management is the cornerstone for any good RTS I've ever heard of.  The only reason your resources begin to "boom" as you head into the mid-game is because you've probably chosen planets with a good amount of minerals on them, strategically, as they are of great value to you.  Just as Chris very elegantly pointed out, every phase of the game is different.  If you could just start out the game pumping out everything you wanted, how would the beginning of the game be any different than a basically easier version of the mid-game?

When you choose to unlock upgraded harvesters first, you are making a knowledge sacrifice early on that could have been used on something else.  From my experience, the way you use your first 10,000 Knowledge is vital on the higher difficulties, and can make the difference between winning and losing.  Your suggestion almost nullifies that strategical aspect of the game, and of the early game in general.  When I watch Suzera play, she simply chooses what she wants at the start and ups the speed until she has everything she needs for her first/second/subsequent attacks.  If you find the early game too slow and tedious, I would make this suggestion to you as well.

[Kordy]

Good resource management is the cornerstone for any good RTS I've ever heard of. 

I'd rather manage my ships' hp and range as resources instead. Though I agree, starting choices should affect the game a lot, but 20k resources is indeed bit too low for a standard 7/7 game. A randomized amount between 40k-50k would be bit more fair to actually build up a reasonably-sized fleet (bonus ship notwithstanding) and some preliminary defenses.

[Ozymandiaz]

The starting resources seems OK to me, can easily make a full cap of fighters for instance. Its not something I would use to build starships on however.

As for my economy, I usually use the 4k knowledge for the MK II resource station. It gives a boost to my somewhat wastefull treatment of my fleets.

[Tridus]

When I watch Suzera play, she simply chooses what she wants at the start and ups the speed until she has everything she needs for her first/second/subsequent attacks.  If you find the early game too slow and tedious, I would make this suggestion to you as well.

I think you just made his point for him. If upping the speed at the start of the game to make the wait for resources shorter is the solution, then there is an issue.

[Wingflier]

When I watch Suzera play, she simply chooses what she wants at the start and ups the speed until she has everything she needs for her first/second/subsequent attacks.  If you find the early game too slow and tedious, I would make this suggestion to you as well.

I think you just made his point for him. If upping the speed at the start of the game to make the wait for resources shorter is the solution, then there is an issue.

There's absolutely not, that's what the feature is there for.  That's like saying the auto-build feature on Space Docks is a problem because you have to use it.  A lot of people don't look at it this way, but time is also a resource in AI War.  By speeding up the game you are indirectly choosing to give the AI a small but distinct advantage while you sit in your base and build up.  Please understand that you certainly don't HAVE to speed up the game, or even get resource blocked; a couple players have already stated that they use their starting knowledge on economy upgrades which probably takes care of most of that, at the cost of other important things.  The point is that you certainly don't HAVE to wait for resources at the start, you can make a pretty significant army with what you're given at the start; most people just choose not to do so.  Well that's fine, but then why complain about it?

[zebramatt]

So, to surmise: I am indeed not alone in thinking this.

I may post a suggestion in Mantis, therefore.

[superking]

on difficulty 7.6, building sufficent units to survive the first two wave is possible but difficult. with more resources it will swing towards easily possible

[hullu]

I don't think arguing over resource amounts is very productive, I think arguing over the 'time saved' makes more sense.

So, if you are gaining 200/sec, this means the 30k starting values are worth 150 sec, two and half minutes.

Ten minutes into the game only 20% of your total resources were the starting resources. Even starting from zero crystal/metal would not make much of a difference with production of 200/200. It would just mean you've got the same fleet at 10 minute mark that you can now have at 7.5 minutes. Also, all the arguments for not upgrading base resources would work equally well for 0/0, and all arguments for upgrading start would also work. So basically any number is good as any other -> make it selectable on game start? =)

[Suzera]

By speeding up the game you are indirectly choosing to give the AI a small but distinct advantage while you sit in your base and build up...a couple players have already stated that they use their starting knowledge on economy upgrades which probably takes care of most of that.

It doesn't give the AI any advantage if you were going to sit there and do nothing that first 15 minutes anyway regardless of how fast you bump the speed. You also can't really use the economy upgrades at the start of the game. The extra resources from the upgraded harvesters is trivial compared to the home planet income, and you can't build an economy base on top of your home command so it's really a waste until you get at least a couple of extra planets for the bases, or a couple dozen for the harvesters. After about 10 planets you're probably hitting cap resources pretty often and wasting resources though, so economy upgrades get a bit wasted there too. The resource cap really should be 100x higher nowadays so that so much of the economy upgrades aren't wasted at times...

on difficulty 7.6, building sufficent units to survive the first two wave is possible but difficult. with more resources it will swing towards easily possible

If the beginning is the hardest part, why bother playing the rest of the game since it will be easy after that? Building enough to survive the first two waves is really really easy anyway, aside from that being a poor argument. Get mk 2 of all your starting fleet ships and build only those and the mk 1s and you're good. The only thing starting with so few resources does is make it so you do nothing for the first 10-15 minutes so you can get your blob going.

After you get 6-10 planets you're pretty much perma-blobbing 100% of the time anyway without too much downtime, regardless of how much or little you start with, if you're even remotely decent at tactics in attacking. Starting with so little just artificially inflates how long until you can really start playing the game after hitting the start button. The first 15 minutes is just actionless waiting to get your force built up unless you multi-hw or use handicaps or something like that.

[zebramatt]

Mantis #2375

[Red Spot]

With 2 - 7.6/8 AIs you have more than enough time to build a fleet. However if you constantly let your manufactories work you will effectivly lose out of 1/3 of those resources ... turn them off untill you have a decent overflow in 1 R.
Also building 5 Rstations will not work ...

(I have 50 of each manufactory about 30min into the game and run them manually, in the long run it is too costly to first spend crystal to create metal to 10 minutes later have to do the reverse cause now you are building some other unit. Takes a wee minor bit of micro but pays for it twice in not wasting Rs.))

I would almost say, nerf the starting Rs and add an option for the few that think it is too little, or feel a need to expand on trivial things before they start building a fleet.

[Sunshine!]

Even on difficulty 9 you generally have more than enough time - my first 10 minutes are typically:

-Build Mk1 Scouts on loop from original space dock (send them to scout periodically)
-Set to auto-build 5 mk1 engineers and 5 rebuilders (turn off all engineers when these are done - don't want them autoassisting)
-Build two more mk1 forcefields on the home-command base
-Build 6 more space docks
-Unlock Mk2 fighters, missile frigates, bonus ship
-Set 2 space docks to produce fighters on loop, 2 to produce bonus on loop, 2 to produce frigates on loop (if there are available resource flows - the frigates typically have to wait until after the first planet though)
-Construct a turret blob around my forcefields of 30 basic, MLRS, laser in front, 3 groups of 5 flak, 30 missile, 5 sniper if resources are available
-Unlock mk2 military when I take my first planet

I tend to let my fighters hit a decent quantity before I start building turrets, because gate raiding is an early priority so I can lock it down to just one entry while I try to expand.  Honestly, I'm not even waiting for those first 10 minutes because of the raiding + scouting I'm doing to try to set myself up for getting a solid hold on the surrounding right after I deal with the first wave.