Spirecrafts improvemet suggestions

[Pumpkin]

Hy commanders!

I need your help to discuss an idea I plan to submit for our favorite RTS.

I just felt a little disapointed playing with Spirecrafts for the first time (at least seriously, not in unlock-everything-and-have-fun game). Well, I identified two distinct things that somewhat hindered my happiness, which may end up in two distinct reports.

* First, before building my first mining enclosure, I wasn't so enthusiastic playing with Spirecrafts because, reading the list of the available ships at the miner's menu, I didn't find a "I want this one right now to throw it at the AI to see if it will appreciate" spirecraft. There is the super-scout, the super-carrier, the super-shield, etc, but there is no plain super-tank! I mean: each spirecraft is very good at a very special task, but at the begining of the game, I don't bother with tricky assaults, I just want to punch the AI and see what happen (and then I need a super-carrier, a super-shield, etc). Look: I very often unlock the zenith and spire starships. When I want to deepstrike Data Centers, I unlock raiders, when I want to manage threatfleet, I unlock riot controls... but when I want to kick the AIs in the teeth, which I want very often, I unlock the two stupid big guys: zenith and spire starships. You want another example? There will be a TLDR, don't complain now. Golems: the one which snipe guard posts (artillery), the one which manage fleetships (widow), the one which hit rarely but hit hard (hive), the one that help fleetships (regenerator - the flagship golem!), etc, and the standalone warrior: the armored golem (the zenith/spire-starships-like golem).

TLDR: Spirecrafts lack a standalone tank or warrior, a simple choice when all the other are too specifics.

* Then, and it's a less important point: the miner itself. I'll just state something fell, and maybe I'm the only one to fell that, but maybe I'm not and that's why I ask your opinion: mining is not fun. I mean: spirecrafts are fun, once decided how to use them, but mining is not as entertaining as capturing and repairing golems or (but even you Keith can't be awesome everywhere) as rescuing spire refugee and building spire's spire starship (certified pure spire). Mining asteroids could have been an alternative sort of knowledge: capture planets, put the special ship in, gather it and chose how to spend it. Some times ago I was willing to submit some tweaks to make knowledge gathering a bit more fun, but I understant that, like energy and metal (which is no more cristal/metal for the same reason) knowledge must be a more streamlined gathering. But spirecraft musn't (if I may humbly interpret the gamedesign's goals) be streamlined: it's a minor faction! So there is my suggestion: make Spire Mining Ship much more expensive (metal and energy), something like hackers maybe, and give one for free at the begining, along with a little lore "Spire Mining Corp will help you in your fight, humans!", just like a true good minor faction; give it a much harsher cap, even 1 maybe, to force the player taking care of it and making choices. And why not making the AI going mad at you building spirecrafts like haking its stuff! Well, I'm getting myself out of the way: spirecrafts already have their AI response by exos, but... why not? replace? add? let the player chose between hack-like or golem-like AI response? Hmm... Here is the "too much" point of the suggestion.

TLDR: Mining must be less streamlined, Spire Mining Ship mush be more like hackers than like science labs. Maybe tweak the AI's response, but it's getting out of the way.

While writing, I'm wondering: golems can handle their exos because they're good fighters, but can spirecrafts really handle their exo with the lack of basic powerful tank/warrior? Adding a spirecraft tank? Tweaking AI response into hacking-like? Did I said "out of the way"? ... Ah, sorry...

FINAL TLDR:
- Add a tank/warrior spirecraft;
- Improve the mining's fun.

Please remember that all this is pure personal thoughts, so please tell me what you think, and let refine this together (maybe "don't touch it, moron!" will be the final answer... and maybe it'll be better like that)

[Gemzo]

1. What you describe is the spirecraft siege tower.

2. I am indifferent to this, but making the mining ship cost more energy would be pointlessly annoying.

[Bognor]

I've always seen golems as the big tank/warriors, whereas Spirecraft are powerful but niche/utility units.  Maybe this could be clearer in the lobby?

Mining asteroids could have been an alternative sort of knowledge: capture planets, put the special ship in, gather it and chose how to spend it.

I'm not really following you here... That sounds very similar to exactly how it does work - you pick a planet, put the mining ship in, choose what spirecraft to make, and make them.

[Arc-3N-4B]

I believe what he means is "Send ship to planet -> Collect Asteroids -> You now have them permanently and can spend them as a limited resource without having to build an enclosure on each one." type thing.

[Kahuna]

The current system is fine.

Golems have been buffed significantly. If Spirecraft have to been buffed already they should be buffed as much as golems.

Also. Even before Golems were buffed Spirecraft were MUCH better at stopping Exos and taking out AI Homeworlds than Golems.

[Pumpkin]

1. What you describe is the spirecraft siege tower.

I disagree. Siege starship is very diferent from the zenith starship. It has low rate of fire, AoE, anti-FF bonus and engine damage, just as the siege tower. I was "describing" something a bit more like the hunter/killer or a big zenith starship. Maybe a big spire starship would be more relevent.

I've always seen golems as the big tank/warriors, whereas Spirecraft are powerful but niche/utility units.  Maybe this could be clearer in the lobby?

The current system is fine.

Interesting. And this may be why I need to debate this idea. Well, I'll try to rework this part of my suggestion. Indeed the system is good like that, but anyway, I honestly believe that it could be better. My point isn't to correct a flaw in the game, because (and there you're right) it's not a flaw, but to improve a part where I'm sure there is room for improvement. Maybe just a free first miner and a little journal entry is all the need. But I still believe it could be more.

Mining asteroids could have been an alternative sort of knowledge: capture planets, put the special ship in, gather it and chose how to spend it.

I'm not really following you here... That sounds very similar to exactly how it does work - you pick a planet, put the mining ship in, choose what spirecraft to make, and make them.

I believe what he means is "Send ship to planet -> Collect Asteroids -> You now have them permanently and can spend them as a limited resource without having to build an enclosure on each one." type thing.

It's totally the oposite. I'm sorry, I have trouble explaining clearly what I mean (and writing in english), much more than I thought. This streamlined behaviour common to both knowledge and asteroid mining seems undesirable to me, because knowledge is a base resource, like metal and energy, and spirecrafts are a minor faction.

(if I may humbly interpret the gamedesign's goals)

I would particularly like to have Keith's opinion there.

If Spirecraft have to been buffed already they should be buffed as much as golems.

Maybe that's the point, in some way. A part, at least.

Even before Golems were buffed Spirecraft were MUCH better at stopping Exos and taking out AI Homeworlds than Golems.

Well, then I prove myself very odd at using spirecrafts, because I thought the exact oposite, at least for the current version and balance. It's good to share experience.

[Fleet Unity]

I like spirecraft the way they are as well and the mining ship does not bother me. I am not saying there is not room for improvement on there stats but remember any time a unit is upgraded it needs to be balanced to not be to overpowered in your hands or the AI. It would be nice if the shieldbearers could be repaired while not under fire or just regenerated health after awhile, I think they could be repaired before not sure why it was changed. Anyway all of them have a specific role to play and are balanced that way. Also on mining the asteroids, they are put there so you can choose when you want to build the unit in question, and for the more powerful ones like MKIV and the MKV you will only find a few of the asteroids required to build them so you must make a choice on the ones you want the most. Also getting a mining ship at the start would be helpful but they do not cost that much to build, getting a journal entry explaining the how spirecraft works would be helpful to players not sure how to use them.

[keith.lamothe]

(if I may humbly interpret the gamedesign's goals)

I would particularly like to have Keith's opinion there.

Bear in mind that I didn't add Spirecraft, Chris did that back in 2010.  I've made balance changes, and recently I redid the Siege Tower and reinvented the Ion as the Translocator.  But those changes didn't come from some long-intended set of design goals there, I'm just reacting to what the players are saying is fun and/or not-fun.  I didn't make it easier to build the miner, etc, that's just how it's worked.

In general the Golems are more the super combatants, where the spirecraft are more utility players.  The Siege Tower is the most warrior-esque, but it's more of a thug than something which serves as a centerpiece by itself.  The new Translocator (formerly the Ion) is also good as part of a fleet, but again not on par with golems on an individual basis.

That said, if you build all the Siege Towers and Translocators you can, and put them at the core of a decent fleet, I imagine they're death-on-wheels.  That's an awful lot of firepower.  But you wouldn't want to let them take the kind of return fire that, say, and Armored Golem could withstand.

As far as tanking, the Spirecraft Shieldbearers are pretty much nothing but Tank.  Their inability to be repaired presents a huge psychological barrier to use by many players, but their ability to provide wide-area high-hp ff coverage even in case of EMP is pretty nice.

The rest are special case, with the Scout admittedly being of dubious use right now.  It used to be OP to the point of trivializing the scouting game.  But the rest of them, to my knowledge, all have powerful uses for those who want them.

[Toranth]

I believe what he means is "Send ship to planet -> Collect Asteroids -> You now have them permanently and can spend them as a limited resource without having to build an enclosure on each one." type thing.

Even if it isn't what he meant, I've always liked this idea.  Right now, Titanite is so rare that you don't always get even 1 in a 100 star map.  But if was redone so that Titanite gave, say, 100 Spirecraft Crystals and that the top tier Spirecraft all cost 100 crystals, you still get the same 1 Titanite = 1 top Spirecraft... or you can get it with 2 Adamantite (@50 each), or 5 Ebonite, or 10 Xampite, or 20 Psyite, or 50 Reptite.
If mean, if you REALLY want that Mk V Attritioner, you can use every Reptite and Psyite in the galaxy at that point.

I just think that adding another resource to the bar might be complicated.

[Pumpkin]

Thanks a lot for your answer, Keith.

In general the Golems are more the super combatants, where the spirecraft are more utility players.

Well, if it's a design choice, it's ok for me. No pure warriors among spirecrafts.
Suggestion 1 closed and canceled.

But those changes didn't come from some long-intended set of design goals there, I'm just reacting to what the players are saying is fun and/or not-fun.

So, why not reconsidering it? What do you (all) think about making mining less streamlined and more fun?
I'll try to rephrase my suggestion 2. But please remember that I never said mining is bad as it is now, I'm just wondering how it could be better.

Sugestion 2.1: just a bit less knowledge-like.
- cap between 1 and 4 for the Spire Mining Ship;
- metal and energy cost similar to the Hacker.
Goal: avoid "scrap and build elsewhere" and "build everywhere and we'll see" behaviour; force players move them and eventually escorte them.

Sugestion 2.2: a bit more hacking-like.
- imply sugestion 2.1, maybe with a cap 1;
- add a little AI reaction when mining, maybe not a true hacking-like one, but at least "adjacent threatfleet are much more likely to attack before spirecrafts are completed (and get a little warped backup)", or "AI is gathering threat because of your mining in Murdoch".
Goal: spirecrafts already has counters, why not making mining has a counter? Hacking is not a stremlined resource, why should asteroids be?

Sugestion 2.3: true minor faction.
- imply sugestion 2.1, cap 1, higher , sugestion 2.2 not required.
- one free Spire Mining Ship for each player at the begining of the game;
- journal entry explaining:
* the roleplay: who are those spire miners who accompany you in your desperate war, why do they help you;
* the gameplay: how to use the miner and what to expect from the AI (already existing exo, potentially added sugestion 2.2).

Personal thought:
I rather dislike 2.2, but I listed it because it's one way to improve the mining phase. However, I truly whish the 2.3 being implemented. I love AI War's lore (I'm amoung the rare fans of the nebulae, and I was so excited by the Exodian Blade revelations), and I was quite disapointed Spirecrafts don't has some lore explanation. I don't know why Golems not having journal entry/deep lore didn't disapointed me. Maybe because they're just old race's doomsday's remains and there is no more needed, or maybe because I played the Fallen Spire campaign after playing with golems and before playing with spirecrafts... But golems are here and there is no one (no more, zenith being gone) to tell you that you can or can't use them (but the AIs, saying "DONT TOUCH THIS"), however Spirecrafts are Spire technology and... how does humans got theses plans if their wasn't given by spires saying "wana kick this AI? Haha, good luck. Take this, you'll need it". I'm sure I can manage to write a game's opening journal entry and submit it!

Well, we'll see. What do you think about?

Edit: just a little technical question: is spirecraft's exo at the same strength as the golems' one?

[Kahuna]

The current system is fine.

is spirecraft's exo at the same strength as the golems' one?

Yes

[Pumpkin]

I'm mainly looking for stuff that's not working that was working in 7.0, or for stuff added since 7.0 that's buggy or imbalanced.

Well, with the 8.0 coming soon, I think it's not time for spirecraft improvement, even if it deserves it (and I'm not sure it deserves it, that's why I began this thread). Anyway, I'll be brewing all that until 8.0 comes up.

[tadrinth]

Spirecraft scouts do have their own little niche, being immune to Tachyon.  You can use them to permanently gain scout coverage on planets with global Tachyon coverage.  Some of the Subcommanders can get Tachyon Command Stations, and of course both AI homeworlds have global Tachyon via the AI Home Command Stations. Mark IV scouts can do this, but you have to unlock MkIIIs and have an Adv Fac and you only get one. 

[Pumpkin]

Also on mining the asteroids, they are put there so you can choose when you want to build the unit in question, and for the more powerful ones like MKIV and the MKV you will only find a few of the asteroids required to build them (...)

Spirecraft scouts do have their own little niche, (...)

Why does everyone* try to explain me how spirecrafts work? You guys just didn't read? I know how they work! I'm trying to discuss some ways to improve them a little bit.

* sorry for the ones that try to help me.
No reaction about making mining more interesting at the cost of streamlined gathering?
(if someone needs to be pointed toward the fundamental question)

[Faulty Logic]

I don't think making mining more difficult would make the spirecraft more fun, or that the streamlining there is bad.