Author Topic: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads  (Read 6412 times)

Offline Toranth

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2014, 02:46:33 pm »
As a starter, let's consider that a Mk. I fighter has 165,000 health. Killing 3,000 of them would be 49.5 million damage. Let's round that up to 50 million, then a Mk II can be 120 million, Mk III 250/300 million damage. However I'd be inclined to orient around a Mk II fighter, and hence double these figures to 100 / 240 / 500.
You dropped a digit - 3,000 Mk I Fighters is about 500 million HP (495,000,000). 
500 Million Damage would also kill:
An Armored Golem
250 Spire Maws Mk Is
17,000 Space Plane Mk Is
40-50 Mk V Guardians
50-ish Mk I starships
29 Core Spire Railclusters

I think I agree with Faulty - Mk II fighters is probably a better basis, so 1,000,000,000 damage.

If it went up with normal mark progressions, 1B, 2B, 3B.  That's a lot of damage in some ways, but unless the radius goes up a lot, it'll be massive overkill against some things (swarmers) and horribly insufficient against others (Tractor Platforms/other ultra-low cap ships).

On the other hand... I can't really think of a better basis.  1,000,000,000 damage is enough for a replacement of what warheads currently do.  So I guess I'd be down with that?  As long as the radius goes up a bit, so you could actually get your full usage.  Or just ignore range entirely, and have it hit everything in system (except electric immune stuff)?

For Martyrs... What about giving them, say, 10x as many tractors (and more range) and have them insta-kill whatever they've tractored when they die?  That way you can get a very exact count of how many ships each could kill, regradless of type or mark.  It'd need to override insta-kill immunity, of course.
This would make Martyrs useless against things that are tractor immune, though, like Spire fleetships or Guardians.
I'd kind of like that, as it would differentiate from a Warhead a little more.



And it just occured to me, Warhead changes need to be balanced with the idea that the Neinzul Silos are also getting whatever is suggested here...

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2014, 02:48:10 pm »

I'm sure ;)  But yea, 100M for a MkI Lightning Warhead is a decent first proposal.  Out of curiosity, why 100 / 240 / 500 instead of 100 / 200 / 300 or 100 / 300 / 500?

I would imagine that in general it is rare for (normal) games to need the higher mark warheads, so they really need to have a greater "efficency" to justify their use.

After all. if the higher marks are no more efficent, why not just use two I's?

To put it another way, if you really need greater firepower, higher mark warheads should be much more efficent at killing things per AIP, although more costly per M.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2014, 02:55:33 pm »
The efficiency increase is important, I think.

So how about:

Lightning/Armored Warheads: 1B / 2.5B / 5B

And Martyrs: 500M / 1B / 2.5B / 5B / 10B


For Martyrs... What about giving them, say, 10x as many tractors (and more range) and have them insta-kill whatever they've tractored when they die?  That way you can get a very exact count of how many ships each could kill, regradless of type or mark.  It'd need to override insta-kill immunity, of course.
This would make Martyrs useless against things that are tractor immune, though, like Spire fleetships or Guardians.
I'd kind of like that, as it would differentiate from a Warhead a little more.
That would nerf the dickens out the Martyr, though.  I understand the desire to differentiate them, but I think they have sufficient distinction now:
1) They don't cost AIP.  That's pretty huge.
2) They hit stuff that's immune to AOE.  5000 fighters can be dealt with by either warheads or martyrs.  5000 missile frigates calls for a martyr.


Quote
And it just occured to me, Warhead changes need to be balanced with the idea that the Neinzul Silos are also getting whatever is suggested here...
What's five billion damage between friends?
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Offline RockyBst

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2014, 03:07:46 pm »
Yup, dropped a digit there.

That's a whole lotta damage. So I'm again going to suggest a per-unit cap: Shall we call it 10/20/40 million damage for starters? Enough to kill a Mk. I/II/IV starship, although the 40 million would also make it a nice weapon against core guardposts (grav reactor I'm looking at you) under a forcefield...

I'd also suggest 20,000 / 30,000 / 40,000 range. And leaving my precious Martys as they are wonderful missile analogues they are.


Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2014, 03:10:34 pm »
That's a whole lotta damage. So I'm again going to suggest a per-unit cap: Shall we call it 10/20/40 million damage for starters? Enough to kill a Mk. I/II/IV starship, although the 40 million would also make it a nice weapon against core guardposts (grav reactor I'm looking at you) under a forcefield...
I'm ok with that to avoid GCS ganking, though I'd want the cap to not apply when hitting a carrier (not even for the individual units inside it, as again partial damage is impossible there).
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Offline Kahuna

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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2014, 03:12:57 pm »
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2014, 03:13:06 pm »
For Martyrs... What about giving them, say, 10x as many tractors (and more range) and have them insta-kill whatever they've tractored when they die?  That way you can get a very exact count of how many ships each could kill, regradless of type or mark.  It'd need to override insta-kill immunity, of course.
This would make Martyrs useless against things that are tractor immune, though, like Spire fleetships or Guardians.
I'd kind of like that, as it would differentiate from a Warhead a little more.
That would nerf the dickens out the Martyr, though.  I understand the desire to differentiate them, but I think they have sufficient distinction now:
1) They don't cost AIP.  That's pretty huge.
2) They hit stuff that's immune to AOE.  5000 fighters can be dealt with by either warheads or martyrs.  5000 missile frigates calls for a martyr.
Right now, Martyrs do between 2-5 million damage to evenything in range.  That's not enough to seriously hurt Starships, Guardians, Golems, or Spirecraft.  The other tractor immune stuff:  Melee ships, Raiders, Teleporters, self-destroyers (autobomb, etc), tractor ships (etherJets, etc), and some random Zenith stuff (why Siege Engines?).

It's certainly more than before (although looking at that list, probably half of them should have Tractor Immunity removed).  But compare:  If you did a 10x tractor beam count, then your Mk II Martyr would kill 2000 ships of any mark, as long as they could be tractored.  That'd include Missile Frigates as well as Railclusters.

BTW:  What type of attack is a Martyr's explosion?  I experimented a bit, and detonated one near an AI Command Station.  The Command Station, the AI Eye, and the BHG were all undamaged, while the nearby ships and Fortress all took 3,000,000 damage exactly as they should.  (The explosion is armor piercing?)

Also, would this (your idea, not my suggested alternate) allow for Mk I Martyrs to come back?

Quote
And it just occured to me, Warhead changes need to be balanced with the idea that the Neinzul Silos are also getting whatever is suggested here...
What's five billion damage between friends?
Oh, just 500 times my Home Command Station's HP.


GCS
What's this?
Showdown unit.

Offline RockyBst

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2014, 03:14:01 pm »
I just searched the wiki. The only reference I could find was

Quote
Armor back down to levels that don't break "max armor piercing".

I'm scared.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2014, 03:17:21 pm »
GCS
What's this?
Showdown unit.
What do the letters G, C and S stand for? It doesn't seem to be listed in the in-game "ship wiki".

EDIT: Galactic Control Ship.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:21:13 pm by Kahuna »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2014, 03:21:01 pm »
What do the letters G, C and S stand for? It doesn't seem to be listed in the in-game "ship wiki".
Galactic Control Ship.  I think it's listed next to the Avenger and Mothership.  A Mothership is basically a super-avenger.  A GCS is basically a super-mothership.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2014, 03:35:50 pm »
I think it's listed next to the Avenger and Mothership.
It's not. EDIT: It's listed next to AI Home Command Station
I found it from CTRL+SHIFT+S --> Reference.

Galactic Control Ship
Attack: 4,000,000*180
Reload Speed: 4 Seconds
DPS: 180,000,000
Range: 43,000
Health: 900,000,000
Speed: 14
Hull: Ultra-Heavy

And It's not immune to radar dampening.

I already know how to basically shove limburger down it's throat: Space Planes.
Mark I Space Planes do 437,874 dps
Mark IIs: 875,748 dps
Mark IIIs: 1,313,622 dps
Mark IVs: 1,751,496 dps
=4,378,740 dps

So if you have unlocked Mark IV Space Planes the GCS will die in ~3 minutes 26 seconds. That ~3,5 minutes could be reduced by a few caps of Mark I Lightning Warheads.

EDIT 2: Space Planes should be renamed to Limburger Planes.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:39:41 pm by Kahuna »
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2014, 04:14:54 pm »
I use the Fallen Spire fleet, so I almost never need to use actual warheads for things. But I have used Armored Warheads, however that was WWAAYY back when their target priority was so low that the AI actually didn't shoot at them. I was still learning the game, only play with the vanilla toys, and didn't realize that it wasn't supposed to work like that. I used it like you would a Spirecraft Penetrater, slip it behind the AI's front lines and oneshot a high value target that I otherwise just couldn't take out. (Superforts mainly.)  Perhaps a similar idea would work now? Rather than a slow, heavy armor warhead, make it a lighting fast, deepstrike weapon. Rather than a large aoe deathblast, make it either a single target shot, or plasma siege bolt on steroids. A very small aoe, but devastating to anything it hits. Very useful for eliminating single, high value targets, but rather useless against large numbers of smaller targets.

This could also be used to make the Core Warehead Intercepter more valuable to the AI, because right now its almost useless. Baring certain AI types you only ever see it on Core Worlds or AI Homeworlds. Give the Plasma Siege Torpedo its own damage type, make some of the average Core Guardposts immune to it, but leave some of the more brutal ones open to getting torpedoed into dust. Spread some Torpedo Interceptors around the galaxy, so that you can't just start blasting anything you want at the start of the game. Probably make it % based. All AI HWs and Core Worlds would have a 100% chance of having an interceptor, MKIV worlds have 50% chance, MKIII a 25% chance, and MKII a 10% chance. All Torpedo Interceptors will spawn near the command station. This means that on AI HWs it is protected by at least 1 Core Forcefield  Remove Core Warhead Interceptors from the game entirely, and make all Core Guardposts, and AI Home Command Stations, immune to major electric. As Interceptors are fairly fragile, you could try using a Lightning Warhead to blow it up, then use Plasma Siege Torpedoes on the nastier Core Guardposts, but its going to cost a lot of AIP that way. Outside of some Core Guardposts, and perhaps the AI Home Command Stations, I would say that nothing else should be immune to the torpedoes. This way you could use it on the stuff that seriously needs to die as fast as possible. Like Mothershihps, Avengers, or Galactic Control Stations.

As for this possibly stepping on the toes of the new Lightning Warheads, give the warheads maximum damage that they can do to a single target and no armor pen, while Plasma Siege Torpedoes deal their full damage to everything in their small area and get max armor pen. Also, in keeping with the current theme that plasma siege weapons absolutely devastate shields, if a Plasma Siege Torpedo hits a shielded target, be it something under a stationary forcefield or something protected shield prjector, (Riot Shield Modules/Spirecraft Shield Bearers/ect) then anything within its aoe takes full damage, ANY shields in the aoe take full damage as well, and anything outside of the aoe but still in the shield takes 10% of the torpedo's damage.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2014, 04:30:41 pm »
Kahuna, would space planes survive 2 GCS long enough, though? Because that unit doesn't come alone unless the two split up. (it doesn't come alone in general because its part of the showdown, but the rest of the ships are probably fodder at that point anyway)

Offline tadrinth

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2014, 02:17:53 am »
The space planes are faster than the GCS, can shoot at it from 5500+ range, and it can't shoot back unless it closes to within 3000 range, because they have radar dampening 3000. 

IE, they kill it without ever being touched, like they kill EVERYTHING ELSE that can't either sneak up on them or chase them down.