Author Topic: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?  (Read 6955 times)

Offline Commiesalami

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Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« on: August 23, 2011, 11:38:46 pm »
I was considering to get 2 mk2 Spirecraft ion Blasters to act as a defensive reserve hitting special forces troops as they wandered into my systems along with handling small threat incursions.  I ended up deciding against it for siege towers which would be more universal.

So I'm curious if anybody uses/used Ion Blasters and what their thoughts/preferred roles are for them.  I don't see them as a very good blob ship until you get your hands on ebonite (mk3) or higher ....

Offline Mayjori

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 12:32:07 am »
I never use them, at least not the lower tier ones, i almost always see mark 3+ AI ships in my games, personally, i like the martyrs, and the rams are pretty usefull too, attritioners are awesome cause they stack.

Offline Echo35

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 04:27:44 pm »
Typically I park them somewhere and use them as a cheap ion cannon, but a lot of times I'll build a small handful of them and keep them with my main fleet for extra support.

Offline Commiesalami

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 05:23:57 pm »
Typically I park them somewhere and use them as a cheap ion cannon, but a lot of times I'll build a small handful of them and keep them with my main fleet for extra support.

What Marks do you get them at?  I've been avoiding anything under mk3 because it doesn't seem like it will be useful on higher mark planets but if they work well as a blob ship at Mk2 then ill give them a shot if I find an extra Xampite or 2 sitting around.

I really don't see if Mk1s have any real use at all

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 06:57:22 pm »
I have no idea what Chris would think about this, but I'm wondering if a general overhaul of the ion-cannon mechanic would be good (the turret-ish ion cannons are also a byword nowadays, not just the spirecraft ions).  Well, I think most of us would agree that it needs to change somehow, but specifically:

- Make ion cannons fire significantly more rapidly (this probably means multiple shots per salvo since they already fire fast, iirc).
- Make it so that a MkI ion cannon insta-kills MkI fleet ships, does 50%-of-max-hp damage to MkII fleet ships, 34% to MkIII, 25% to MkIV, and 20% to MkV.
- MkII ion cannon would insta-kill MkI and MkII, would do 50% to MkIII, 34% to MkIV, and 25% to MkV.
- MkIII would do insta/insta/insta/50/34.
- MkIV would do insta/insta/insta/insta/50.
- MkV would insta-kill all tiers.

They still wouldn't be worth anything against starships and whatnot, but they could go back to being the fleet-ship-depopulator.  Wouldn't want to go too wild on increasing rate of fire, and maybe that's primarily a buff for the higher ion marks.

Thoughts?
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Offline Commiesalami

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 07:10:34 pm »
I have no idea what Chris would think about this, but I'm wondering if a general overhaul of the ion-cannon mechanic would be good (the turret-ish ion cannons are also a byword nowadays, not just the spirecraft ions).  Well, I think most of us would agree that it needs to change somehow, but specifically:

- Make ion cannons fire significantly more rapidly (this probably means multiple shots per salvo since they already fire fast, iirc).
- Make it so that a MkI ion cannon insta-kills MkI fleet ships, does 50%-of-max-hp damage to MkII fleet ships, 34% to MkIII, 25% to MkIV, and 20% to MkV.
- MkII ion cannon would insta-kill MkI and MkII, would do 50% to MkIII, 34% to MkIV, and 25% to MkV.
- MkIII would do insta/insta/insta/50/34.
- MkIV would do insta/insta/insta/insta/50.
- MkV would insta-kill all tiers.

They still wouldn't be worth anything against starships and whatnot, but they could go back to being the fleet-ship-depopulator.  Wouldn't want to go too wild on increasing rate of fire, and maybe that's primarily a buff for the higher ion marks.

Thoughts?

That would make Ion Cannons feared again very much so.  And I fully agree with the proposed idea.  Right now I don't care about ion cannons in AI systems.  One kill every 2 seconds means that I would lose my ship cap of a single ship is just 2-3+ minutes (Swarmers like infiltrations & Younglings throw these numbers off even more).  Right now Ion cannons are pitiful when compared to the power of defensive fleet ships and guardians.  In all my games they end up being ignored, captured & then scrapped to help build the next spire city or whatnot.

Offline realcoolguy

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 07:13:34 pm »
This does come back to offering players false choices.  When the ion cannons cost mountains and aren't worth a hill of beans it feels like a rip off and people have to be wondering what is wrong.  I'm really hoping you guys do focus on making everything useful and have their usefulness reflect the cost.  At it stands now, the ion cannon should be worth maybe the cost of 1 starship.

I am having dreams and nightmares with regards to ion cannon upgrades.  However they are just decorative as it stands now so they need a fix.  (Unless you want new players to buy the exciting and expensive objects from the trader, and have them do next to nothing if they're ion cannons)

Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 07:34:15 pm »
I remember squealing in excitement when I saw that you could buy Mk. V Ion cannons from traders. But after a bit of thought, I realized that despite their ability to instakill any fleet ship, they didn't fire enough to actually have an effect unless combined with a grav drill/grav turret spam. Personally, I just think that the rate of fire should increase by mark level, because as it stands right now I'm thrilled to attack a planet with an ion cannon, since it poses almost no threat. Attrition emmiters are more difficult to attack, and even those seem underpowered.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Ranakastrasz

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 08:14:36 pm »
I have no idea what Chris would think about this, but I'm wondering if a general overhaul of the ion-cannon mechanic would be good (the turret-ish ion cannons are also a byword nowadays, not just the spirecraft ions).  Well, I think most of us would agree that it needs to change somehow, but specifically:

- Make ion cannons fire significantly more rapidly (this probably means multiple shots per salvo since they already fire fast, iirc).
- Make it so that a MkI ion cannon insta-kills MkI fleet ships, does 50%-of-max-hp damage to MkII fleet ships, 34% to MkIII, 25% to MkIV, and 20% to MkV.
- MkII ion cannon would insta-kill MkI and MkII, would do 50% to MkIII, 34% to MkIV, and 25% to MkV.
- MkIII would do insta/insta/insta/50/34.
- MkIV would do insta/insta/insta/insta/50.
- MkV would insta-kill all tiers.

They still wouldn't be worth anything against starships and whatnot, but they could go back to being the fleet-ship-depopulator.  Wouldn't want to go too wild on increasing rate of fire, and maybe that's primarily a buff for the higher ion marks.

Thoughts?

I like this idea alot. But I think that it should double in power per tier, rather than linearly increase, to better match that of fleet ships.
This because ship stats seem to approximately double on each tier up, so Ion cannons ought to follow that scale.
Also, potentially multishots if attacking significantly inferior ships would be interesting as well, so a MarkV attacking a fleet of MarkI ships would get a 16 multishot (would obviously require the spread shot mechanic to work properly)

Code: [Select]
- MkI insta/50/25/12.5/6.25
- MkII double insta/insta/50/25/12.5/6.25
- MkIII 4x insta/2x insta/ insta/50/25
- MkIV 8x insta/ 4x insta/ 2x insta/ insta/ 50.
- MkV 16x insta /8x insta / 4x insta/ 2x insta/ insta

An ion cannon currently fires at 1 shot per 2/4/8 seconds (depending on ship cap I think) and for the basic fleet ships, the fleet cap is 49/98/196, so it currently takes 392 seconds (~6.5 minutes) for an ion cannon to take out ONE fleet cap of ONE tier of ships.

I think that increasing the fire rate to 0.5/1/2 would be better, except that may attack speeds were increased so as to be at least 1, so keep the same cooldown, but get 4x the fire rate. this would allow for a matching tier fleet cap to the ion cannot to be taken out totally in ~1.7 minutes. This would scale with other tiers, and your fleet would usually contain much more than a single ship type/tier cap, but at least 6 of them, probably on par with that of the cannon.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 08:48:39 pm »
This does come back to offering players false choices.  When the ion cannons cost mountains and aren't worth a hill of beans it feels like a rip off and people have to be wondering what is wrong.  I'm really hoping you guys do focus on making everything useful and have their usefulness reflect the cost.  At it stands now, the ion cannon should be worth maybe the cost of 1 starship.
Actually the "buying an ion cannon from a trader is a ludicrously poor investment" thing is quite intentional.  That's just candy to trick you into thinking you can trespass on the AI's privilege of having them ;)  But capturing an ion cannon from the AI should be worth at least something.

Quote from: Ranakastrasz
I like this idea alot. But I think that it should double in power per tier, rather than linearly increase, to better match that of fleet ships.
This because ship stats seem to approximately double on each tier up, so Ion cannons ought to follow that scale.
Actually the fleet ships increase linearly too, as in the code literally multiplies the mkI's health and damage (and a few other stats, but NOT rate-of-fire or anything that would lead to a quadratic/exponential increase) by the mark level.  So mkII is twice as strong as mkI, and mkIII is three times as strong as mkI, but mkIII is only 1.5 times as strong as mkII.

But to some extent the really high mark ion cannons could stand an extra buff since they can already insta-kill most of the targets they actually face.

Quote
Also, potentially multishots if attacking significantly inferior ships would be interesting as well, so a MarkV attacking a fleet of MarkI ships would get a 16 multishot (would obviously require the spread shot mechanic to work properly)
Having the number of shots be dependent on the mark level of the target is a no-go, sorry.  The number of shots per salvo needs to be static.  But in this case I wouldn't want it to increase for the lower marks anyway: "ion flooding" is and should be a valid tactic.  There are other ways of handling swarms of lower-mark stuff.  But having a higher rate of fire in general would be a good thing.

Quote
An ion cannon currently fires at 1 shot per 2/4/8 seconds (depending on ship cap I think) and for the basic fleet ships, the fleet cap is 49/98/196, so it currently takes 392 seconds (~6.5 minutes) for an ion cannon to take out ONE fleet cap of ONE tier of ships.
Yea, that's not fast enough, I agree.  And it's very very poor against anything higher mark than it.  Of course, making it so that ion cannons can do non-zero and non-infinite damage to higher-mark targets based on mark is going to involve more code than I originally thought, but I think it's worthwhile.

Quote
I think that increasing the fire rate to 0.5/1/2 would be better, except that may attack speeds were increased so as to be at least 1, so keep the same cooldown, but get 4x the fire rate. this would allow for a matching tier fleet cap to the ion cannot to be taken out totally in ~1.7 minutes.
Minimum seconds-per-salvo time is 1 (used to be able to do it on partial seconds but we removed that to get some significant optimization), and personally I don't want it to fire any more often than 2 seconds (on high caps).  And on lower ship caps the time needs to be 2x and 4x that due to the nature of changing the cap scale.  But multiple shots per salvo is quite doable.

Of course, the first player to run into an AI Eye under a forcefield next to a superfort with 2+ ion cannons is probably going to kill me for this ;)
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Offline Ranakastrasz

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2011, 09:47:28 pm »
This does come back to offering players false choices.  When the ion cannons cost mountains and aren't worth a hill of beans it feels like a rip off and people have to be wondering what is wrong.  I'm really hoping you guys do focus on making everything useful and have their usefulness reflect the cost.  At it stands now, the ion cannon should be worth maybe the cost of 1 starship.
Actually the "buying an ion cannon from a trader is a ludicrously poor investment" thing is quite intentional.  That's just candy to trick you into thinking you can trespass on the AI's privilege of having them ;)  But capturing an ion cannon from the AI should be worth at least something.
Why can we build ion blasters then?
Quote from: Ranakastrasz
I like this idea alot. But I think that it should double in power per tier, rather than linearly increase, to better match that of fleet ships.
This because ship stats seem to approximately double on each tier up, so Ion cannons ought to follow that scale.
Actually the fleet ships increase linearly too, as in the code literally multiplies the mkI's health and damage (and a few other stats, but NOT rate-of-fire or anything that would lead to a quadratic/exponential increase) by the mark level.  So mkII is twice as strong as mkI, and mkIII is three times as strong as mkI, but mkIII is only 1.5 times as strong as mkII.

But to some extent the really high mark ion cannons could stand an extra buff since they can already insta-kill most of the targets they actually face.
Well, I was partly incorrect, but considering I just checked the stats of the mark I to markIV fighters, I noticed something interesting.
The costs of each tier of figher is twice the previous tier, while the stats are always a linear increase. Depending on your definition of combat value (I am using Durability * Attack power), This may or may not make sense. Mark I fighter costs 2x as much as mark I, while Mark II have 2x as much damage and 2x as much health, hence 4x the combat value. Mark 3 have 3x the stats of Mark 1, hence 9x the combat value, or 1.5x that of mark 2, and 2.25x as much combat value. Mark 4 have 4x the stats, 16x, 4x, 1.8x, the combat value, hence from each higher tier, the improvement is lower. I am not sure if this is intentional or not. the lower tiers become much more powerful for their cost, while the higher tiers become stronger much slower for their cost. T5 continues the trend as well, with 1.5x as combat value, but once again the same 2x cost as mark 4.
(Note I am assuming all ships scale the same way, I am not sure if this is the case)
Mark I    1x(1x) stats, 1x cost.
Mark II   2x(4x) stats, 2x cost.
Mark III  3x(9x) stats, 4x cost.
Mark IV   4x(16x) stats, 8x cost.
Mark V    5x(25x) stats, 16x cost.

However, Since we are balancing an attack, I would note that only the durability stat really matters here, so it is a linear increase, rather than a quadratic one.

Quote
Also, potentially multishots if attacking significantly inferior ships would be interesting as well, so a MarkV attacking a fleet of MarkI ships would get a 16 multishot (would obviously require the spread shot mechanic to work properly)
Having the number of shots be dependent on the mark level of the target is a no-go, sorry.  The number of shots per salvo needs to be static.  But in this case I wouldn't want it to increase for the lower marks anyway: "ion flooding" is and should be a valid tactic.  There are other ways of handling swarms of lower-mark stuff.  But having a higher rate of fire in general would be a good thing.
Quote
An ion cannon currently fires at 1 shot per 2/4/8 seconds (depending on ship cap I think) and for the basic fleet ships, the fleet cap is 49/98/196, so it currently takes 392 seconds (~6.5 minutes) for an ion cannon to take out ONE fleet cap of ONE tier of ships.
Yea, that's not fast enough, I agree.  And it's very very poor against anything higher mark than it.  Of course, making it so that ion cannons can do non-zero and non-infinite damage to higher-mark targets based on mark is going to involve more code than I originally thought, but I think it's worthwhile.

Quote
I think that increasing the fire rate to 0.5/1/2 would be better, except that may attack speeds were increased so as to be at least 1, so keep the same cooldown, but get 4x the fire rate. this would allow for a matching tier fleet cap to the ion cannot to be taken out totally in ~1.7 minutes.
Minimum seconds-per-salvo time is 1 (used to be able to do it on partial seconds but we removed that to get some significant optimization), and personally I don't want it to fire any more often than 2 seconds (on high caps).  And on lower ship caps the time needs to be 2x and 4x that due to the nature of changing the cap scale.  But multiple shots per salvo is quite doable.
Sorry, I meant 4x shots, not 4x fire rate. And I knew you had a reason for upping the minimum fire rate as well. On lower ship caps any ships that do not scale need to have their attack speed/attack targets scale with the ship counts.
Of course, the first player to run into an AI Eye under a forcefield next to a superfort with 2+ ion cannons is probably going to kill me for this ;)
They will probably kill you anyway, for setting up the RNG XD

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 10:03:16 pm »
Why can we build ion blasters then?
Primarily it's a way that the game makes fun of you :)

Quote from: Ranakastrasz
Well, I was partly incorrect, but considering I just checked the stats of the mark I to markIV fighters, I noticed something interesting.
The costs of each tier of figher is twice the previous tier, while the stats are always a linear increase. Depending on your definition of combat value (I am using Durability * Attack power)
I wouldn't weight durability the same as attack power, as often being able to get in a good hit is more important than being able to take one, at least for fleet ships.  For bigger stuff that kind of changes.  Anyway, there really is no overall formula for effectiveness, but suffice it to say the underlying "what can this ship do" numbers go up linearly.

Quote
This may or may not make sense. Mark I fighter costs 2x as much as mark I, while Mark II have 2x as much damage and 2x as much health, hence 4x the combat value. Mark 3 have 3x the stats of Mark 1, hence 9x the combat value, or 1.5x that of mark 2, and 2.25x as much combat value. Mark 4 have 4x the stats, 16x, 4x, 1.8x, the combat value, hence from each higher tier, the improvement is lower. I am not sure if this is intentional or not. the lower tiers become much more powerful for their cost, while the higher tiers become stronger much slower for their cost. T5 continues the trend as well, with 1.5x as combat value, but once again the same 2x cost as mark 4.
Right, the fact that cost increases significantly more rapidly than effectiveness is intentional: early on when mkI and mkII ships are pretty much the best you have you're pretty strapped for resources.  Later on you have quite a bit more income.  Also, we want the lower mark ships to remain viable choices so they're much cheaper; mkI ships also cost half the energy that they normally would.

But in battle often having a ship that's 3x/4x/5x as your cheap ships is worth more than can be easily expressed in m+c.  Particularly when you have it in addition to the lower-mark stuff.  Doesn't matter how rich you are if you lose the war :)

Quote
On lower ship caps any ships that do not scale need to have their attack speed/attack targets scale with the ship counts.
That depends on the goal.  If the different cap scales are to be balanced exactly the same, yes.  But that's not our goal.  We provide the different scales to cater to different tastes (some like more units, some less) and hardware levels, and we smooth out the more egregious balance differences like "this non-scaling ship insta-kills stuff that does scale, so its rate of fire needs to scale".  But we're definitely not going to chase every single wrinkle along the scaling-units/non-scaling-units boundary.

Quote
Of course, the first player to run into an AI Eye under a forcefield next to a superfort with 2+ ion cannons is probably going to kill me for this ;)
They will probably kill you anyway, for setting up the RNG XD
They'd only be getting a middleman, they'll need to go back to the source ;)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_twister
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 03:27:41 am »
I have no idea what Chris would think about this, but I'm wondering if a general overhaul of the ion-cannon mechanic would be good (the turret-ish ion cannons are also a byword nowadays, not just the spirecraft ions).  Well, I think most of us would agree that it needs to change somehow, but specifically:

- Make ion cannons fire significantly more rapidly (this probably means multiple shots per salvo since they already fire fast, iirc).
- Make it so that a MkI ion cannon insta-kills MkI fleet ships, does 50%-of-max-hp damage to MkII fleet ships, 34% to MkIII, 25% to MkIV, and 20% to MkV.
- MkII ion cannon would insta-kill MkI and MkII, would do 50% to MkIII, 34% to MkIV, and 25% to MkV.
- MkIII would do insta/insta/insta/50/34.
- MkIV would do insta/insta/insta/insta/50.
- MkV would insta-kill all tiers.

They still wouldn't be worth anything against starships and whatnot, but they could go back to being the fleet-ship-depopulator.  Wouldn't want to go too wild on increasing rate of fire, and maybe that's primarily a buff for the higher ion marks.

Thoughts?

Sounds like a good change. Ion cannons have been underwhelming for a while now imo.

Of course, this makes the planets the AI has Mk III+ cannons on a lot more dangerous. But thats a good thing, and more lucerative to capture and hold, espeially if it is a choke point. :)
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 03:42:19 am »
I think it was fine how ICs basically annihilated any ships that fall under their mark level (they used to have a refire time of ~1 second?), forcing you to leave the lower mark stuff at home if you have any plan to grab the IC alive. Making the AI's ICs effective against higher mark levels is probably unnecessary as players will use low mark ships all the time.

It's player ICs vs AI ships where marks get problematic as the AI won't use anything below mark 2 outside of the first systems you see and then mk3 is still the most common. Maybe an IC under human control should be able to kill its mark level +1 so humans want to capture ICs.

However even when they are effective the ICs just don't do much of interest, maybe they should shoot two shots per volley or so. On medium caps you'll commonly see a few hundred ships vs one IC which can only kill one every two seconds. Or maybe give IC shots a small AOE that might not instakill but will at least kill engines.

Offline Zeba

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Re: Spirecraft Ion Blaster - Does anybody use them?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 06:17:19 am »
Even if ions are buffed the ai held ones will be easy enough to counter.

No matter what mark level the cannon they shoot the lowest mark first so just make sure to have plenty of cannon fodder mkI in your fleet.

In retrospect the devs will probably change the targeting priority to shoot the highest mark now.  :P