Author Topic: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities  (Read 17550 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« on: September 11, 2011, 09:38:17 pm »
So, the Attritioner isn't very popular.  Not particularly surprising as an attrition mechanic in human hands would generally either be underpowered or overpowered, and tends to favor slow playstyles (nothing wrong with that, but I want fast-paced players to want these too).

While perhaps a boost to the attrition amount might be in order, I think a much more likely path to usefulness-without-overpoweredness is in giving it some kind of secondary ability.  Currently I'm considering:

1) Adding a grav range; basically making these mobile grav turrets in addition to the attrition.  But the "allowed speed" of the affected ships would be higher and the area-of-effect would probably be smaller, with both improving as mk level goes up.  A mkV attritioner could become pretty nasty ;)

2) Adding engine damage to the attrition.  This would have to only tick once every few hp-attritions I think, or it would be too much ED, though I don't know for sure.  And ultimately it could just be way OP to have _anything_ that does engine damage to every single hostile on a planet.  One concern is that it could potentially single-handedly take a lot of the teeth out of exo-waves since engine damage is one of the few ways to "knock" follower ships out of the "goes lead ship speed + 5" rule.  I could just have those be specifically immune to the engine attrition (not engine damage in general).

3) Adding armor damage to the attrition.  A pretty safe change, I think, but I don't think it would actually solve the usefulness problem, it'd just be another takes-a-lot-of-time-to-make-a-difference ability.

4) Adding guns.  They used to have them, but were taken off as they interfered with some players' usage of them: hiding on AI planets to wear them down, etc.  Not sure if they can be properly hidden anyway, hmm.  Some kind of selective low-power-mode thing has been requested several times by now anyway, wouldn't be impossible to make it happen for this.  Anyway, one solid if uninspired way to make any of these more "utility" spirecraft more useful is to just slap a solid set of guns on them that gives them below-average-but-decent dps for service in the blob.  As I say, uninspired; not a big fan of blobs, myself ;)


And a few ideas I'm pretty against but worth mentioning for discussion purposes:

5) Adding Tractor Beams.  Been there, done that (tractor platform, martyr, black widow golem), don't need to make it too common.

6) Adding Tachyon Beams.  Useful, I guess, but kinda marginal.

7) Adding Repair Beams.  Laughable ;)  The MRS was bad enough back in the day.

8) Adding parasite damage to the attrition.  Also Laughable ;)  Goodness the insanity people would perform...

9) Add a short paralysis every 10th attrition tick or something like that.  Could be interesting, but would have to be short/infrequent enough that stacking an entire cap of attritioners on a single planet wouldn't completely lock down every hostile non-para-immune ship on the planet.  And even if they didn't it'd be pretty much a given that some folks would pile them all on their single chokepoint world and achieve something like a 50-75% increase in the effective reload time of most AI ships.

And so on for basically any mechanic ever in the game, though it gets a bit silly to have more than one unit like the Nanoswarm that's basically like those JRPG spells that hit monsters with like 10 debuffs at the same time ;)


Anyway, favorites? And why?  Not looking for a poll here, really, just comments and potentially new options (though anything that requires a really new mechanic is pretty unlikely right now).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2011, 10:58:38 pm »
I know you said that new abilities aren't allowed but…

1) self-destruction ability; if it doesn't fit the play style, might as well make them a potent warhead

Other than that, I liked the tractor beam suggestion. With guns. Anything that adds more violent space war on my screen gets full marks from me.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Kemeno

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2011, 11:15:57 pm »
The grav range idea sounds pretty cool (and would make things really nasty at high mark levels). The downside to this is that if you had this and kept the attrition damage, you could probably just kite forever with a cap of these.  Putting guns on them obviously would also make them a good deal more appealing as well, but it's little less exciting, I think  ;)

If you're going through mechanics of every ship in the game, I find the concept of a planet-wide maw pretty hilarious. If you kept the number of ships they could eat low (maybe 2-5 or so at mark 1) it might not be too laughably imbalanced.

Giving them a global radar dampening/jamming effect could also be useful (and admittedly also probably broken).
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 11:18:14 pm by Kemeno »

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2011, 11:28:21 pm »
Giving them guns would help me not forget to bring them with my fleet. I say every time that I'm not going to ignore them, but then they don't get selected with the rest of the mobile military and thus get forgotten again.

But really what would make them more useful is if they didn't aggro the entire planet when they warp in. They are one unit that completely shatters that whole 'mini-battlefield' concept. Ironically, though, that is my only use for them right now. Freeing a whole planet and then warping out, leading to bunching things up on a wormhole so I can martyr/warhead them.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2011, 11:47:54 pm »
If the more "stand back and do your stuff" and "defensive" minded spirecraft get guns, could they get the "do not auto-move to auto-acquired targets, no matter what mode" flag the the Spire blade spawners currently have?

Offline Underfot

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 57
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 08:23:16 am »
Perhaps a friendly speed boost / hostile slowing ability like a logistics station?  That, I expect, would need to be non-stacking.

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2011, 09:01:24 am »
I'm all for slowing down enemy ships (and speeding up my own) so I say grav effect + dmg buff.
I don't like the idea of giving it guns because that would make the attrition pretty useless (especially with the current low dmg).

EDIT: attritioner description still says that it has guns and does "High" attrition dmg lol. Good thing I normally only look at stats and never read description, or I'd be confused :D
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 09:09:26 am by zoutzakje »

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2011, 10:12:18 am »
1 or 2 I like.

Also, for completeness, I previously bounced the following ideas:

Maybe they could do vastly more damage over time, but with a floor of 25% health or something?

Or perhaps they could do more and more damage over time?

Or vastly more to begin with, then less and less over time?

Or perhaps they might do more damage the closer ships get to them?

Or perhaps vastly more damage the further away things are from them? (Actually, that sounds a bit crazy.)

No idea what I was drinking that night!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 10:16:01 am by zebramatt »

Offline Nice Save

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2011, 10:12:48 am »
How about making it so that multiple attritioners do more damage than the sum of their parts? Like the old autocannon swarm bonus?

Offline dotjd

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2011, 10:18:26 am »
Armor damage is a good idea.

They would probably be a lot more generally useful if they didn't aggro entire planets (although that in itself can be useful at times).  Maybe make a maximum effective range, like 30k km?  I guess that could have its own problems though, I'm already imagining attritioners + scout starship turning guardposts into threat one by one and slaughtering them piecemeal at the other side of the wormhole.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2011, 10:24:54 am »
I can't recall where I suggested it before, but:

Increase the DPS, but have them only affect enemy ships below x% health (where x is a fairly low value like 10 or 20%).  This allows a much higher DPS value because you won't be able to wipe out a whole system without something else to get those ships down to x% health.  Depending on X, it is likely the Attritioner could deal x5-x10 its current DPS.

Offline NickAragua

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 281
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2011, 10:49:08 am »
I like them just the way they are currently. Recently, I had a bunch of Parasite/Raptor/Etherjet/Space Plane (in other words, weak, low-HP ships) waves that got completely murdered by a full cap of MKI attritioners, before they could even get close to my logistics command station (to add insult to injury, I also put a black hole machine in that system). I also didn't know they had a use in terms of pissing off everything on an AI planet, but now that I do, I like them even better.

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2011, 01:59:55 pm »
if only I had a gravity drill on one of my worlds.... then they'd be useful.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2011, 02:43:39 pm »
I know you said that new abilities aren't allowed but…

1) self-destruction ability; if it doesn't fit the play style, might as well make them a potent warhead
Introducing the Martrittioner! ;)  Wouldn't even be a new ability, really, and you're certainly welcome to suggest any that seem really compelling.  Just might not have time right now.

Anyway, perhaps some kind of localized EMP-warhead effect would be a cool use for them (could use that to lift a siege from your forcefields long enough to repair, etc), though in some ways that would just make them the Martyr's little-and-less-effectual brother.

Quote
Other than that, I liked the tractor beam suggestion. With guns. Anything that adds more violent space war on my screen gets full marks from me.
Adding guns and tractor beams would certainly help, though then it feels like so many things have lots of tractor beams, and there's been noise elsewhere that stuff with tractor beams tends to get mauled pretty bad due to the inability to selectively low-power the beams.

But I think giving them a mild grav range would achieve something like a bunch of tractor emitters, but usefully different.



If the more "stand back and do your stuff" and "defensive" minded spirecraft get guns, could they get the "do not auto-move to auto-acquired targets, no matter what mode" flag the the Spire blade spawners currently have?
Thanks for reminding me about the DoesNotMoveToPursueUnlessOrderGivenByPlayer flag, that would be helpful there.  Though I wonder if that wouldn't still leave problems with the way some folks were using these.  Worth a shot, I think.


Giving them guns would help me not forget to bring them with my fleet. I say every time that I'm not going to ignore them, but then they don't get selected with the rest of the mobile military and thus get forgotten again.
Yea, that's a big point in favor of adding guns.

Quote
But really what would make them more useful is if they didn't aggro the entire planet when they warp in. They are one unit that completely shatters that whole 'mini-battlefield' concept. Ironically, though, that is my only use for them right now. Freeing a whole planet and then warping out, leading to bunching things up on a wormhole so I can martyr/warhead them.
Yea, I think that's one thing I really want to stay the same with these guys; there aren't a lot of other ways to just aggro everything (though I guess bringing in a few things with sniper range and shooting one guard at each post would do it), and a lot of players like to use that tactic.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Spirecraft Attritioner usefulness-increase possibilities
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2011, 03:11:58 pm »
I find I can reliably provoke a general defense by attacking a GP with an overwhelming force.  Maybe that's just because I'm on 7/7 though.

Another Attritioner idea:

Make them damage force field structures with a huge damage multiplier (like x100) but minimal to everything else.  So they work great at taking out force fields if you can keep them alive long enough (since they aggro the whole system).  Somewhat similar to knowledge raiding.  Could also be interesting if it worked on some other select defenses.