Author Topic: Spire Corvettes  (Read 7399 times)

Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2012, 11:19:09 am »
I'd have to load it up and check to see the specifics. It was a 10/10 16 HW start 120 planet map. I had 7 hubs built and ~40 planets controlled. I think each FS Exo was close to a mil in FP.

Yes, new Imperial ships warp in but it is more a stalemate at this point. If I let it keep running, the AI actually will over run me.

I had that happen on my 10/10 8 homeworld game, prompting a buff to that fleet. You should open a bug report and put up the save for Keith to go and buff them again, likely he have to settle on what I suggested before and have them grant invincibly to stuff when they arrive, as that that point the game is over and you just watching the end, but if it can't end on it own without having to have him keep going back and buff it every now and then...

Offline Cinth

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2012, 11:59:56 am »
It was reported but not for that reason. The FS ships started acting weird.
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2012, 01:31:58 pm »
So the problem is that FS ships are too good compared to regular production but if they weren't then they wouldn't be worth it...

Spire Corvettes are not supposed to synergize with the FS fleet. They may also be kinda weak compared to the cruisers you get from nebulas (Keith said those are like cap-of-one MkV ships)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2012, 01:39:32 pm »
They may also be kinda weak compared to the cruisers you get from nebulas (Keith said those are like cap-of-one MkV ships)
Cap of 4, but yea.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2012, 01:55:42 pm »
So the problem is that FS ships are too good compared to regular production but if they weren't then they wouldn't be worth it...

Spire Corvettes are not supposed to synergize with the FS fleet. They may also be kinda weak compared to the cruisers you get from nebulas (Keith said those are like cap-of-one MkV ships)

Cruisers are like 3 steps up from a corvette, so they should be stronger ships.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2012, 05:12:24 pm »
Spire think in different terms than other races, they call the FS frigates tiny little ships. I guess their nebula factions should reflect that though.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2012, 05:30:12 pm »
I missed this thread first time...

It might be just me, but I'm finding Spire Corvettes just a bit too weak.

Compare them to their closest starship, the spire starship.

A spire corvette MK I with upgraded shields and lasers has 2.4 million cap health and a base of 141k damage with a potential of 228k damage against its bonused targets at the cost of 4.5K (you can half that due to having the base units as well, so for effectiveness sake I go with 2K cost.)

A spire starship MK I has 1.6 million health cap with a universal damage of 480k for the cost of 1k, with gravity immunity and radar dampening.

A zenith starship has 2.4 million health cap with universal damage of 100k and a potential damage of 400k with radar dampening.

[This is comparing to the spire starship]
For me, the spire corvette just doesn't have enough of a clear advantage for a bonus ship. It has a 50% health advantage if you sink K into shields, but it has worst dps and lack of range or radar dampening cuts into the health advatage bad. It gets really bad once you get into the II range for the modules cost 13k on top of the 2.5k for the ship itself. Even with the advantage of extra defenses, the raw K needed really, really gimps a ship that is meant to be decesively better to begin with, and shouldn't have to rely on top of the line external upgrades to achieve parity (let alone superiority).

[This is for the zenith starship]
The results here are even worst. The Zenith Starship has the same health as the corvettes cap wise, but with radar dampening. The zenith starship has a lower base dps, but is more reliable (spire lances are fickle against moving targets) and has a much higher absolute max dps. Never mind the zenith starship needs 1k to achieve this, while the spire corvette needs 2k (4.5k absolute, get down due to other benefits). Again, the K cost disparity between the two craft rises sharply at the II range.


I'm just not feelin these corvettes compared to normal starships. They do about the same cap wise, and they cost a good 40% M +C  more as well cap wise.
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2012, 08:48:40 pm »
Personally I really enjoy the Spire Corvettes, but I have to agree that they are rather under powered for a bonus ship, let alone a bonus starship. I use them anyway simply because if you start with them as a bonus ship, they are fairly ok early on. (More expensive than any other starship, but more fun IMO (I Like Modules)) However once you get past MKII the drop off really hard on usefulness. Where any other bonus ship or even basic starship I only have to invest the K to get the next mark up, with the corvettes I have to invest in all the modules as well. Now while that isn't as major of an issue for me with my "screw the AIP I have superweapons" gameplay, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify the shear cost of the corvettes each mark.

Now lets take units with some similar features. The mod forts have modules that the higher marks of you have to pay extra K to unlock, just like the corvettes. However, the forts can justify the cost in multiple ways. The forts are incredibly powerful for the K you spend, the extra K spent on higher mark modules gives you higher mark defenses for your planets, and you can even get powerful modules without spending any K due to them being champion unlocks. Of these three justifications, the corvettes only share one. The fact that unlocking higher mark modules gives you higher rank defenses as well. They don't have the usefulness and the power of the mod forts, and they can't get any specialized modules for free like the forts can.

Now, for these two issues I have a few ideas to fix them. The first, and most obvious, is to buff the corvettes. Keith already said he was thinking of buffing their range on the main gun, but I feel that they need a buff to their power, or their cap, as well. While they are supposed to be special things that you cant get as many as normal starships, they don't bring nearly as much as other starships can. If we have to keep the normal cap at 2, I would suggest a serious buff to their overall power. Otherwise bring the cap up to 3 or 4, and only give a moderate buff to their overall power.

Next bit would be to improve their integration with the FS campaign. The mod forts can get a good deal more useful, and you can get more of them, if you use the champion, but even without a champion you can still get one mod fort that is still damn good. I would say as you get further into the FS campaign you should get more out of the corvettes. (Yes this could make it feel like you are being railroaded into using them if you play FS, but you don't need them to finish and FS game and you can even beat an FS game without the FS fleet if you worked at it. This would just improve their usefulness if you had them during an FS campaign.) Perhaps they can get special modules that you can only unlock while playing the FS. Or, even more awesome IMO, you could get larger Human/Spire hybrid ships if you have the corvettes during an FS game. The other ships wouldn't need to be much more powerful than the corvettes themselves (maybe 20%-30% stronger) but simply able to add more modules. In this case, I would decrease the cap by one each time. (IE, if corvettes were bumped to a 4 cap then the next two would be a cap of 2 and 3 respectively) The last idea, which someone already suggested and I am shamelessly reposting, would be to increase the cap of corvettes as you get further into the FS campaign.

(I used the mod forts as thecomparison to the corvettes because while they are radically different units, they share a common theme. The mod forts are human fortresses integrating the shadow vessel's modular tech, and the corvettes are simply human starship design being integrated with Spire technology, similar to, but on a larger scale, the Riot Starships)

Offline Atomikkrab

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2012, 09:33:18 pm »
I'd like them having more range on the main gun otherwise they are good to me.


Also the AI does have a counter for the FS end fleet, WRATH LANCE. Had one manage to take out the fleet since they targeted it last. (and the Ai desperation bombed the superdreadnaught with 20 HKs which managed to take that down at the cost of all those HKS. However the lance was all the ai had left so I just murdered it and won anyway.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2012, 10:40:05 pm »
Bumped to ask Keithe his thoughts on having this ship scale with the FS campaign like the mod forts do with champs.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2012, 10:48:37 pm »
Bumped to ask Keithe his thoughts on having this ship scale with the FS campaign like the mod forts do with champs.

Think that has been answered in this thread already.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2012, 04:43:05 am »
Hey I haven't used Spire Corvettes yet, but are their modules not based on the same turret tech as modules for spire ships and city structures?  If so, isn't that a way of them scaling along with the spire fleet nicely?  I.e., researching modules for the spire fleet also improves your corvettes without having to spend any extra knowledge.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2012, 09:23:24 am »
Hey I haven't used Spire Corvettes yet, but are their modules not based on the same turret tech as modules for spire ships and city structures?  If so, isn't that a way of them scaling along with the spire fleet nicely?  I.e., researching modules for the spire fleet also improves your corvettes without having to spend any extra knowledge.
That much is true, yes.

In response to the more general topic (I think I said this already but may not have) of having them scale up with shipyards: that would make Spire Corvettes the "almost always pick this" bonus ship type pick when you're intending to play into the city phase of FS.  I don't want to make choices that obvious because they tend to cease being effectively "choices" at that point ;)
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2012, 11:23:31 am »
Agreed. Tying an optional, not always available bonus ship to what is essentially a "major faction" seems like a bad idea. The reason why the modular fort/champion tie works is because a) you get some modular forts anyways by playing through the champion stuff, and b) you always have at least one modular fort available (the human modular fort). For a bonus ship, there is an opportunity cost involved; by picking a spire corvette, you don't get a different ship. The whole point of bonus ships is that this is the only opportunity cost involved, as otherwise it artificially limits your "competitive" choices when something major is turned on.

EDIT:
That said, if Spire Corvettes are not up to par, then it is the corvettes themselves that need a buff. (Another reminder, base weapon range increase for them. ;))
For example, their cap health and dps needs to be checked whether it is in line with the other starships. I don't mind a cost and energy increase in order for that to happen.

P.S. Ever figure out why there are "blank spots" in the corvette build tab? Do you want me to post a save with this?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 11:25:35 am by TechSY730 »

Offline Cinth

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Re: Spire Corvettes
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2012, 11:38:08 am »
http://arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9771

^ For better range ^

I'll leave health and dps to those who like to calc such thing :)
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.