Author Topic: Special ships: am I missing something?  (Read 2438 times)

Offline Haagenti

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Special ships: am I missing something?
« on: July 27, 2009, 04:11:29 am »
Bold proposition:
I would never choose the following specials. I cry when I get Advanced Research and one of these fellows pop out. When they do, I do not build them. If my parasites capture one, I scrap it immediately. I laugh when the AI has them, as it does build them and this replaces other ships that are useful to it.

Anti-armor
Deflection Drone
Eyebot
Shield Bearer
Spiderbot
Vampire Claw

I refer to these collectively as RMC: Removable Content

Or am I missing something?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:37:48 am by Haagenti »
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Offline darke

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 06:14:21 am »
Really random collection of thoughts:

Anti-armour doesn't really seem to have any stand out attacks from memory. They're basically a missile-type of fighter with more range. I'd say they're a good all-rounder but I wouldn't pick them as a starting ship. (Opinion: OK)

Deflection Drone's "laser attacks on it, increase it's health/electric damage" seems on average pretty useless. Laser attacks are rare in comparison to pretty much anything else (other then sniper attacks, and they'll shoot at other things in preference anyway). But you can probably pull off some neat tricks with EMPs along with them, I've just never had them when I needed to use EMPs. Maybe if you were going against a bunch of Teleport Turtle AIs? Or one of the Technologist* AIs that cheat horribly to have every planet at Tech III or above. :) They'll be plenty of Laser turrets on those worlds.

Eyebots sound neat, but I've tossed 60+ I've captured off an enemy to do a scout mission before, and they barely make it as far as a regular Scout Drone. They're nice to have in your pack of ships though when you capture them from enemies, since you never need to worry about scouts, etc anymore, but they just don't seem to have much value otherwise. Maybe if they increased cloaking on half a dozen ships rather then x1 they might be useful?

If you could send 300+ of them on a longish scouting mission, they'd be at least viable in comparison to, say upgrading the scouting tree to get tachyon scouts. I just have no idea how good the upgraded ones are, since the base ones suck so much. :(

They do have "ignores forcefields" though, so maybe they're decent at Tech III/IV against that sort of thing. If they were immune to shells as well as missiles, they would be good to take out special forces command posts with if they're hiding under forcefields. And they might be good against a small defense force under a forcefield, but they just seem to due too quickly for me.

Maybe if you could set them to randomly wander around a planet to reveal all the mines? :)

At a random thought, maybe if they were immune to the Counter-Spy buildings (and there were a few more scattered around the map on non-Counter-Spy AIs) it would be more useful, not to mention thematic. :) (Opinion: Sucks as the first ship you get, but not terrible if you've already got a decent couple of ships already.)

Shield Bearers are, well, pretty useless I think. They're terribly annoying when the AI uses them, but I can't see their (logical enough) ability to be immune to nuclear explosions to be much use in your average or even non-average game. (Opinion: Sucks)

Spiderbots are decent enough ships in their own right, fast and healthy, long range, even though they fire a bit slow. Their special ability is, again, much more suited to an AI. (Opinion: Again, sucks as first ship, otherwise ok enough.)

Vampire Claws are actually rather neat. Fast, 660 damage per second, immune to tractor beams, self healing, are pretty much fire-and-forget. The only issue is using them as "group move" means they're less optimal for those who don't like micromanaging combat. They probably either need more health/shielding, or immunity to long range attacks (aka, missiles), since they don't have the regen of the cutlass, and half the health (and less shields). Though it doesn't say "can't be repaired" on their description, so they can be repaired by engineers and the like? That would compensate it (though probably a little too much), I'm guessing though that they can't be repaired due to their vampirism ability.

If they had teleporting, and the teleporting-AI was smart enough to only have them attack scattered ships, rather them bamf straight into a pile of 300+, they'd be useful in picking off stragglers, or random assaults around the place. And also even more annoying when the AI uses them against the player since they'd be tearing through harvesters left right and center! :)

From memory they're pretty decent to toss through a wormhole and have them soak up damage/chip away at the things before I send the rest of my fleet through. They they still die a bit too easily in that situation. (Opinion: Ok to Good, depending upon playstyle and what the map is throwing at you.)

Personally I find Space Tanks to be probably the most worthless of the lot. Slow firing; slow movement speed so they slow the rest of your group down when trying to group move; they don't have any larger engine health so they're just as vulnerable to spider bots as the rest of the fleet, even more so since they're always trailing behind because they're Too Damned Slow. Just all around suck. :( They are useful as a good distraction to toss as a sacrifice to the Electric Turrets though! :) (Opinion: *sad bunny in the snow* )

On a tangent, I think the ship I'm most happy to find in an advanced research is the Tachyon Fighters. They're not a ship I tend to start with often, since they're not particularly good out of the box, but they really do compliment things nicely and it's nice to have their cloak-detection ability to find mines, cloaked tachyon turrets, etherjet ships, and that sort of thing.

Offline Haagenti

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 07:58:37 am »
Anti-armour doesn't really seem to have any stand out attacks from memory. They're basically a missile-type of fighter with more range. I'd say they're a good all-rounder but I wouldn't pick them as a starting ship. (Opinion: OK)

Not being able to do anything well, does not make you an allrounder. In my experience, I blow them away, and if I have them, they are blown away. They lack the range of a cruiser and they are not as durable against cruisers as fighters. They are dumb meatshields: if they had more hitpoints/armor/shields and no attack or abilities, they would work better.

Deflection Drone's "laser attacks on it, increase it's health/electric damage" seems on average pretty useless. Laser attacks are rare in comparison to pretty much anything else (other then sniper attacks, and they'll shoot at other things in preference anyway). But you can probably pull off some neat tricks with EMPs along with them, I've just never had them when I needed to use EMPs. Maybe if you were going against a bunch of Teleport Turtle AIs? Or one of the Technologist* AIs that cheat horribly to have every planet at Tech III or above. :) They'll be plenty of Laser turrets on those worlds.

There will also be other turrets. They'll be just as dead.

Spiderbots are decent enough ships in their own right, fast and healthy, long range, even though they fire a bit slow. Their special ability is, again, much more suited to an AI. (Opinion: Again, sucks as first ship, otherwise ok enough.)

I will have to try them some more then.

Vampire Claws are actually rather neat. Fast, 660 damage per second, immune to tractor beams, self healing, are pretty much fire-and-forget. The only issue is using them as "group move" means they're less optimal for those who don't like micromanaging combat. They probably either need more health/shielding, or immunity to long range attacks (aka, missiles), since they don't have the regen of the cutlass, and half the health (and less shields).

Same as Anti-Armor:  a meatshield for the rest. They rarely get near me.

Personally I find Space Tanks to be probably the most worthless of the lot. Slow firing; slow movement speed so they slow the rest of your group down when trying to group move; they don't have any larger engine health so they're just as vulnerable to spider bots as the rest of the fleet, even more so since they're always trailing behind because they're Too Damned Slow.

At least they can defend themselves: I use them to defend my entry wormhole into a planet, so I can toss through a Colony Ship/Research Lab/Mobile Builder and use the remainder of the fleet to go on a tear. Opinion: Somewhat sucky.

On a tangent, I think the ship I'm most happy to find in an advanced research is the Tachyon Fighters. They're not a ship I tend to start with often, since they're not particularly good out of the box, but they really do compliment things nicely and it's nice to have their cloak-detection ability to find mines, cloaked tachyon turrets, etherjet ships, and that sort of thing.

They'd be my fifth favorite after EtherJets, Parasites, Electric Shuttles and Munition Support. In my current game against two Cloakmasters they would certainly come in very handy.
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Offline PhilRoi

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 08:04:39 am »
Quote
Personally I find Space Tanks to be probably the most worthless of the lot. Slow firing; slow movement speed so they slow the rest of your group down when trying to group move; they don't have any larger engine health so they're just as vulnerable to spider bots as the rest of the fleet, even more so since they're always trailing behind because they're Too Damned Slow. Just all around suck. Sad They are useful as a good distraction to toss as a sacrifice to the Electric Turrets though! Smiley (Opinion: *sad bunny in the snow* )

I don't know,  I find them useful.  they are plenty fast enough to keep up with cruisers.  I usually pair the two and they do alot of my workhorse running and gunning.   are they slow?   yes.   but thats why i keep them out of mass formations....

Offline darke

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 08:54:58 am »
Quote
Personally I find Space Tanks to be probably the most worthless of the lot. Slow firing; slow movement speed so they slow the rest of your group down when trying to group move; they don't have any larger engine health so they're just as vulnerable to spider bots as the rest of the fleet, even more so since they're always trailing behind because they're Too Damned Slow. Just all around suck. Sad They are useful as a good distraction to toss as a sacrifice to the Electric Turrets though! Smiley (Opinion: *sad bunny in the snow* )

I don't know,  I find them useful.  they are plenty fast enough to keep up with cruisers.  I usually pair the two and they do alot of my workhorse running and gunning.   are they slow?   yes.   but thats why i keep them out of mass formations....


Might be another "feature" of Fast&Dangerous mode. The difference for me between 10 and 12 speed for me is painfully large. :( And again, because they're that much slower they hang back at the pack even when not moving as a group and I tend to find them paralyzed to death via spiders too.

Offline Revenantus

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 09:17:26 am »
While it's true that not all ships are equally valuable, this is acceptable because AI War is a game in which the economy is handled asymmetrically, and hence the player is never in the situation where they are disadvantaged against an enemy purely because of a less effective bonus ship.

The Lord of Xdom himself has commented on this, an interesting aspect of the game is finding effective and creative uses for the tools you have at your disposal at any given time, even if those tools aren't always your favourites/the best. The game isn't played competitively, so it isn't really a necessity for ships to be perfectly 'balanced' per se.

It is a problem, however, if it can be demonstrated that a ship is overpowered in an overwhelming variety of situations, or if there is absolutely no situation for which a ship is suited, so far I don't think this has been the case. Except for Shield Bearers, those guys suck...

I think Shield Bearers should act as a type of magnetic damage sponge, drawing fire towards themselves, still taking damage but having large amounts of health. This would make them viable for inclusion in fleets. Perhaps they might even become the mobile shield emitters suggested in the Future DLC?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 09:22:27 am by Revenantus »

Offline darke

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 09:30:24 am »
Anti-armour doesn't really seem to have any stand out attacks from memory. They're basically a missile-type of fighter with more range. I'd say they're a good all-rounder but I wouldn't pick them as a starting ship. (Opinion: OK)

Not being able to do anything well, does not make you an allrounder. In my experience, I blow them away, and if I have them, they are blown away. They lack the range of a cruiser and they are not as durable against cruisers as fighters. They are dumb meatshields: if they had more hitpoints/armor/shields and no attack or abilities, they would work better.

Cheaper then cruisers, do about the same amount of damage in the same amount of time as cruisers, and are almost as fast as bombers/fighters, so you could have literally a twice as fast attack squad if you skipped cruisers (save for taking down fortresses/special forces bases), if you didn't build cruisers and built these guys instead. Only real deficiency is they have half the range (not much of a problem since they've got twice the speed, save the special forces bases note above), and they're a little light on health (possibly a little too light on health...). Though you get an extra 50% of them as max cap to compensate.

Actually I'm now tempted to start a game with them, since they do seem to have potential to be much better for early game strike forces. Late game though the health difference between them and cruisers really gets silly (Tech III cruiser is 110k, anti-armour is 14k...), so they certainly don't ramp up enough to last, even though they do get bigger range, whilst higher level cruisers don't.

Deflection Drone's "laser attacks on it, increase it's health/electric damage" seems on average pretty useless. Laser attacks are rare in comparison to pretty much anything else (other then sniper attacks, and they'll shoot at other things in preference anyway). But you can probably pull off some neat tricks with EMPs along with them, I've just never had them when I needed to use EMPs. Maybe if you were going against a bunch of Teleport Turtle AIs? Or one of the Technologist* AIs that cheat horribly to have every planet at Tech III or above. :) They'll be plenty of Laser turrets on those worlds.

There will also be other turrets. They'll be just as dead.

They will be healing more, due to more laser shots, they'll be "just as dead", slower. :) Though given the massive buffs the turrets got recently, they're probably in for an increase in something to compensate since they really seem to be specialized anti-turret type ships. :)

Vampire Claws are actually rather neat. Fast, 660 damage per second, immune to tractor beams, self healing, are pretty much fire-and-forget. The only issue is using them as "group move" means they're less optimal for those who don't like micromanaging combat. They probably either need more health/shielding, or immunity to long range attacks (aka, missiles), since they don't have the regen of the cutlass, and half the health (and less shields).

Same as Anti-Armor:  a meatshield for the rest. They rarely get near me.

That the AI can't use them well, doesn't necessarily mean you can't use them well. I had a backdoor hacker AI with them once and he kept throwing dozens of the things through the exo-wormhole into my base. It was the only time I'd actually feared for the safety of my command center after the initial start of the game in any I'd played. :)

Personally I find Space Tanks to be probably the most worthless of the lot. Slow firing; slow movement speed so they slow the rest of your group down when trying to group move; they don't have any larger engine health so they're just as vulnerable to spider bots as the rest of the fleet, even more so since they're always trailing behind because they're Too Damned Slow.

At least they can defend themselves: I use them to defend my entry wormhole into a planet, so I can toss through a Colony Ship/Research Lab/Mobile Builder and use the remainder of the fleet to go on a tear. Opinion: Somewhat sucky.

I guess. The only problem is they're hopeless to try and chase things that actually can do serious damage to your command center, research labs and the like: cruisers. :) 8000 range vs their 2200 means the cruisers will be pounding away in a nice semi-circle on your ships long before you can get the guys into range to take them out. On the plus side they're actually decent against cruisers when they do get into range.

On a tangent, I think the ship I'm most happy to find in an advanced research is the Tachyon Fighters. They're not a ship I tend to start with often, since they're not particularly good out of the box, but they really do compliment things nicely and it's nice to have their cloak-detection ability to find mines, cloaked tachyon turrets, etherjet ships, and that sort of thing.

They'd be my fifth favorite after EtherJets, Parasites, Electric Shuttles and Munition Support. In my current game against two Cloakmasters they would certainly come in very handy.

Munition Support are nice, but now there starships have that ability, they're really not at the top of my list. Plus Etherjets and Electric Shuttles I find both have very nich uses, whereas Tachyon Fighters, and Parasites are something that really has a use all the time.

Offline x4000

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 10:36:43 am »
Great thread!

I don't think there is any real issue with Space Tanks or Vampires, I think that is mostly a matter of preference as a number of players seem to like those.  Also, with Spiders' recent range increase, I think those are way more useful when paired with cruisers, etc.  For some of the others, here are changes that will be in the next prerelease:

-The Anti-Armor ships now have a min hit percent chance of 90% (so if a ship is at all in range, they have a 90% chance of hitting it -- cruisers have an 80% chance of that).  Their range has also all been increased to 5000, which is lower than a cruiser but higher than most other ships.  This makes them something of a secondary cruiser, which should make them a lot more popular in general.

-Eyebots are now immune to being insta-killed by ion cannons, etc.  They are also now immune to snipers.

-Shield bearers now have small, weak force fields, which let them protect nearby allied ships but which doesn't let them push enemy ships around.

-The range of deflector drones has been increased 10x, making them the longest-ranged non-sniper ships in the game.  They are still a weak ship, but this makes them useful in a lot more situations rather than just against masses of laser gatlings, etc.


I never see myself removing a ship from the game, but I do rebalance at various times when a ship becomes too weak over time to remain useful.  Deflectors used to be a lot more useful, because more ships had lasers than currently do.  At one point laser gatlings were the scourge of the alpha versions, huge fleets of them would sweep the galaxy and deflectors were then crucial.  But with all of the changes and balance tweaks since then, deflectors and a few of the others have become much less useful.  It's a continuous process, balancing and rebalancing all of this sort of thing...
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Offline Admiral

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 01:19:42 pm »
I also very much enjoyed the thread, despite the fact that I haven't often used many of these ships.

I am an odd one, I think, in that I won't play a game unless I can start with parasites. To me, these ships are so vastly better than every other choice that unless I am feeling self-flagellatory the game doesn't start without this on my homeworld.

As there become more and more starships, it might be an interesting choice to allow some homeworlds to start with a certain starship technology instead. Additionally, having the ability to use research to increase ship caps would be interesting. For each 25% of the original research, you could get a 10% increase in ship cap (or whatever ratio BalancingX comes up with).

Another thought for people who just have certain types of ships you hate: have a choice of multiple ship types when you capture an Advanced Research station, or maybe a simple "The ship type you captured is A. There may be other data hidden in the repository, but searching for it will destroy the records of A. Do you wish to look?" And if you choose to look, you definitely don't get A, but you have an 80% (or whatever) chance of getting something other than A.

Finally, once the "Advanced Lobby" stuff is put in, maybe X can put in a whole tab for "ships available to be discovered" as well as "ships available in game."

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Offline x4000

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Re: Special ships: am I missing something?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 01:58:06 pm »
I am an odd one, I think, in that I won't play a game unless I can start with parasites. To me, these ships are so vastly better than every other choice that unless I am feeling self-flagellatory the game doesn't start without this on my homeworld.

Well, I always played French in AoEIII and Aeon in SupCom for much the same reasons.  At least you get some variability in your civ based on what ships you pick up along the way, here. ;)

As there become more and more starships, it might be an interesting choice to allow some homeworlds to start with a certain starship technology instead.

Added to the "maybe" list, since I think a lot more starships are needed before this will be too viable.  Or maybe not, I'll be curious to hear what people think:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,490.0.html

Additionally, having the ability to use research to increase ship caps would be interesting. For each 25% of the original research, you could get a 10% increase in ship cap (or whatever ratio BalancingX comes up with).

Already on the future DLC list to some degree:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,237.0.html  I've added your notes.

Another thought for people who just have certain types of ships you hate: have a choice of multiple ship types when you capture an Advanced Research station, or maybe a simple "The ship type you captured is A. There may be other data hidden in the repository, but searching for it will destroy the records of A. Do you wish to look?" And if you choose to look, you definitely don't get A, but you have an 80% (or whatever) chance of getting something other than A.

This is on the future DLC list, too:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,241.0.html  I added your notes.

Finally, once the "Advanced Lobby" stuff is put in, maybe X can put in a whole tab for "ships available to be discovered" as well as "ships available in game."

Already on the list from you:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,279.0.html :)
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