Some Starships cost too much Knowledge

[Draco18s]

Aside from raider starships, I always seem to get "planet is a battlefield" feeling. It doesn't help that mentally, despite over 3 years of playing AI War, I still think that is how it should be.

Agreed.

Despite all these changes to make the AI guards more...passive, 90% of the time I end up stirring up the whole nest and get into the "whole planet is a battlefield" state.

[Wanderer]

The biggest problem with 'battlefields inside of battlefields' feeling is the complete and utter disconnect in mid-game you get trying to determine how much force to use without a planet-awakening.  You can get there with a calculator eventually, but that's not exactly helpful.  A campaign usually takes 10-15 hours of game time + pause time uncalculated as it is.

So, you have two options.  You bring in a force that you KNOW is too damned small and can't set off the planet, and they end up wiped at some point.  Or you bring in the entire damned fleet and fight the entire damned thing at once, which is something you can control and expect. 

As to starships costing too much in knowledge?  I've been whining about that for a while.  There is no way in hell Bomber SS III will ever be worth Bomber Fleet III/IV.  Or heck, even Fighter III/IV, and a lot of people know my opinions about those zerglings. They're special case/special use ships that under most circumstances are merely fleet-ball tucks to help take out guardians.  I haven't had a chance to play with the new split starship lines but in general the only Starship I think is appropriately priced are the Raid SSs, and those are expensive to me (and to build).  Enough so that even though I practically rely on Raid SSs to break Eyes, I have a hard time justifying bringing them to MK III.

Considering 1/4 of the maps I play are usually covered by eyes and it's a common problem, why would I ever invest in Bomber SSs (or leeches, or sieges) which cost more and have even less usage other than fleetball... which is better filled by an actual fleet ship and gets auto-improvements to MK IV and thus a double cap?

*shrugs*  I don't use starships or even attempt to heavily use them because their K price negates their value.  Similar to what a number of the turrets were until recently with some of the boosts they got between the Neinzul and the dampening.

[TechSY730]

About the battlefields within battlefields thing, that is something that would not be so easy to balance in well.

However, I thought of something. The current "free everything if I am massively overwhelmed" logic is good, and smart play, but right now, planets are frequently too weak, so this logic gets triggered nearly all the time.

Something I thought about is possibly increasing the amount of ships AI planets initially seed with by a good amount (but not so much that every planet becomes a grind), making it harder for ships to be freed (like not free a group of ships if only one of them gets shot at, but maybe only when what they are guarding <50% or dies, whichever comes first, instead of the as soon it is shot like it is now; or possibly have a large percentage of the defenders be permanent defenders that will never be freed until the planet is lost). Reinforcement rates may need to go down some to ensure that planets don't get grindy too fast, or to prevent early game border aggression.

The idea behind this change is to make each planet much better defended, thus making it harder to trip the "free everything you can" switch, but make it harder to put ships into threat in the first place, so you don't have to worry as much that the stronger planets will instantly kick your butt upon the first attack, and you don't have to micro quite as much to prevent your ships from freeing stuff unintentionally, as small amounts of aggression won't free as much.


This would require a large amount of balance work, but it may be something worth thinking about.

EDIT: Or if this is too much to balance and change, how about an easier variant of this idea? Like making it harder to free ships (like some of the ways suggested above), but increasing reinforcement rate some to compensate.

[Draco18s]

The idea behind this change is to make each planet much better defended, thus making it harder to trip the "free everything you can" switch, but make it harder to put ships into threat in the first place, so you don't have to worry as much that the stronger planets will instantly kick your butt upon the first attack, and you don't have to micro quite as much to prevent your ships from freeing stuff unintentionally, as small amounts of aggression won't free as much.

Could work.  I wouldn't mind trying it out.

[Diazo]

Okay, I've started a starship only game.

I'm actually somewhat impressed, Starships are not as fragile as I thought they were.

With a fleet of (all Mk I) 4x Flagship, 4x Spire Starship, 4x Zenith Starship, 3x Raid Starship, 5x Plasma Siege, 4x Bomber Starship I took on a Mk IV world with an ARS.

I took the system in 2 waves, falling back to repair. Ultimately lost 1x Bomber Starship, 1x Spire Starship and 4x Plasma Siege to take the system.

In total resources, that is 3.2 times the resource cost of a ship cap of Mk I bombers.

I suspect I would have lost significantly more then 3 ship caps worth of Mk I fleet ships to take out the Mk IV system so the starships are looking pretty good so far. I also think I could have played the attack better and not lost as many Plasma Siege.

Having said that, I have spent 2000 K to unlock the Zenith and Spire Mk I SS where the fleet ships would have cost me no K.

We'll see once I start on the Mk II starships, those are significantly more expensive.

D.

[rabican]

I played similiar game few versions ago. It is doable, but you won't be taking planets in one go so it will take a loooot of time. Actually my offensive force is usually mostly starships, in fire power if not in numbers at least.

How did you lose the plasmasieges? I usually end up losing bombers or fleet line starships alot.

[Diazo]

Warp point in the center of the system and Missile Guard posts at the edges. They prioritize plasma sieges so they were getting focus fired.

I started out with cloakers that were supposed to let my starships reach said guard posts without taking damage but they died en-route somehow. (I think the tachyon at my entry warp point stayed alive too long but I'm not actually sure.)

I just rolled a starship ball though, I did not separate the plasma siege into their own control group like I normally do when they are supporting my fleet ball. That alone would probably have saved one or two of those plasma siege.

At this point though I still only had 25 ships in my starship "ball" so I did not feel it worth it to split into two groups, will be doing that from now on.

D.

[Wingflier]

I agree that attacking a planet nowadays has become a boring, almost arduous process. It used to be that some planets, especially MKIVs, were really a struggle to take. Any more you can just send your fleet ball in, FRD, and come back 3 minutes later. This has had specific implications on the once fun beachhead strategy which is basically pointless now.

Even on the harder difficulties it doesn't seem like a big challenge attacking a high level planet (once you're past the early game). I just finished a game with double 5/5 advanced hybrids and there was still never any difficulty taking the heaviest planets.

You're much more likely to die as a result of a powerful wave, exo attack, or CPA than attacking a "well defended" planet.  Part of the problem is that the reinforcements of the non-alerted planets is abysmal, which is saying a lot since even the alerted planets aren't that big of a problem.

AI Eyes are really just a band aid to the problem, which is why I think most people find them more annoying than anything. Going from FRD fleet ball to heavily microed strike squad is just another form of grind. You really want the situation to be interesting and ever-changing.

[TechSY730]

I agree that attacking a planet nowadays has become a boring, almost arduous process. It used to be that some planets, especially MKIVs, were really a struggle to take. Any more you can just send your fleet ball in, FRD, and come back 3 minutes later. This has had specific implications on the once fun beachhead strategy which is basically pointless now.

Even on the harder difficulties it doesn't seem like a big challenge attacking a high level planet (once you're past the early game). I just finished a game with double 5/5 advanced hybrids and there was still never any difficulty taking the heaviest planets.

You're much more likely to die as a result of a powerful wave, exo attack, or CPA than attacking a "well defended" planet.  Part of the problem is that the reinforcements of the non-alerted planets is abysmal, which is saying a lot since even the alerted planets aren't that big of a problem.

AI Eyes are really just a band aid to the problem, which is why I think most people find them more annoying than anything. Going from FRD fleet ball to heavily microed strike squad is just another form of grind. You really want the situation to be interesting and ever-changing.

Again, I would like to push my idea (which may need to go on Mantis):

About the battlefields within battlefields thing, that is something that would not be so easy to balance in well.

However, I thought of something. The current "free everything if I am massively overwhelmed" logic is good, and smart play, but right now, planets are frequently too weak, so this logic gets triggered nearly all the time.

Something I thought about is possibly increasing the amount of ships AI planets initially seed with by a good amount (but not so much that every planet becomes a grind), making it harder for ships to be freed (like not free a group of ships if only one of them gets shot at, but maybe only when what they are guarding <50% or dies, whichever comes first, instead of the as soon it is shot like it is now; or possibly have a large percentage of the defenders be permanent defenders that will never be freed until the planet is lost). Reinforcement rates may need to go down some to ensure that planets don't get grindy too fast, or to prevent early game border aggression.

The idea behind this change is to make each planet much better defended, thus making it harder to trip the "free everything you can" switch, but make it harder to put ships into threat in the first place, so you don't have to worry as much that the stronger planets will instantly kick your butt upon the first attack, and you don't have to micro quite as much to prevent your ships from freeing stuff unintentionally, as small amounts of aggression won't free as much.


This would require a large amount of balance work, but it may be something worth thinking about.

EDIT: Or if this is too much to balance and change, how about an easier variant of this idea? Like making it harder to free ships (like some of the ways suggested above), but increasing reinforcement rate some to compensate.

This would make attacking more interesting.

Another thing I suggested else where is to give planets nearish to an alerted planet a slightly boosted chance of getting reinforcments, instead of the largely all or nothing system like now.

[Draco18s]

You're much more likely to die as a result of a powerful wave, exo attack, or CPA than attacking a "well defended" planet.  Part of the problem is that the reinforcements of the non-alerted planets is abysmal, which is saying a lot since even the alerted planets aren't that big of a problem.

Which is one of the reasons I stopped playing.  Exo attacks, CPAs, etc. were always "more dangerous" than the next planet I wanted to neuter/murder, but that such events never had any cooldown time between them.  After I recovered from one, another was always "5 minutes away" and I had to go meet it.

I suppose that's one of the reasons I don't play with golems or spirecraft on "hard."  They just don't leave enough of a rest period (not to mention the fact that both exogalaxy forces show up at the same time).

[TechSY730]

You're much more likely to die as a result of a powerful wave, exo attack, or CPA than attacking a "well defended" planet.  Part of the problem is that the reinforcements of the non-alerted planets is abysmal, which is saying a lot since even the alerted planets aren't that big of a problem.

Which is one of the reasons I stopped playing.  Exo attacks, CPAs, etc. were always "more dangerous" than the next planet I wanted to neuter/murder, but that such events never had any cooldown time between them.  After I recovered from one, another was always "5 minutes away" and I had to go meet it.

I suppose that's one of the reasons I don't play with golems or spirecraft on "hard."  They just don't leave enough of a rest period (not to mention the fact that both exogalaxy forces show up at the same time).

Well, I believe that in the recent patch, the rate that the exo-waves come on golems or spirecraft hard was reduced some, by virtue of having the initial accumulation cutoff increased. (This does mean the first exo-wave and subsequent waves hit harder now, but now you have more time between them so you can actually make some progress first)

EDIT: Kieth also mentioned that the exo-wave costs probably need some adjustment, especially in the mid ranges.

And for my ideas suggested earlier:

9079: Increase how much stuff the AI gets per planet, but make it harder to free AI defenders
9080: Give AI planets nearish to an alerted planet a slightly boosted chance of getting reinforcements


If the first idea (the increasing how much stuff the AI gets) is not done, I think a straight up buff to reinforcement numbers is needed for the AI. I know such a buff was done recently, but more is needed.

[Draco18s]

Well, I believe that in the recent patch, the rate that the exo-waves come on golems or spirecraft hard was reduced some, by virtue of having the initial accumulation cutoff increased. (This does mean the first exo-wave and subsequent waves hit harder now, but now you have more time between them so you can actually make some progress first)

I saw that, and I'm unsure of what I think of it yet.

Bigger hits less often tends to mean a longer rebuild time (absolutely) due to the non-linear nature of these things.

I.e. if 100 ships mean I spend 1 minute rebuilding losses, and I get one of those every 10 minutes, that's 10% of my time.
But 200 ships mean I spend 3 minutes rebuilding losses, and if one of those comes in every 20 minutes, that's 15% of my time.
And if I get some other event during that rebuild time that also causes losses, it compounds the issue.

[Wingflier]

Maybe buff the rate that AI reinforcements scales with AIP? Definitely buff the rate which the non alerted planets reinforce. Maybe add a new AI modifier that's the opposite of Hybrids. Instead of being super aggressive they increment the AI's defenses significantly. Might be a good project for the expansion.

[TechSY730]

Well, I believe that in the recent patch, the rate that the exo-waves come on golems or spirecraft hard was reduced some, by virtue of having the initial accumulation cutoff increased. (This does mean the first exo-wave and subsequent waves hit harder now, but now you have more time between them so you can actually make some progress first)

I saw that, and I'm unsure of what I think of it yet.

Bigger hits less often tends to mean a longer rebuild time (absolutely) due to the non-linear nature of these things.

I.e. if 100 ships mean I spend 1 minute rebuilding losses, and I get one of those every 10 minutes, that's 10% of my time.
But 200 ships mean I spend 3 minutes rebuilding losses, and if one of those comes in every 20 minutes, that's 15% of my time.
And if I get some other event during that rebuild time that also causes losses, it compounds the issue.

The hard exo-waves may need a bit of a nerf, or at least a bit of a nerf in accumulation rate.
I know for sure that the Fallen spire exo-waves (the periodic ones, not the "special event" ones) need a nerf in their accumulation rate, and/or an increase in their accumulation cutoff.