Some Starships cost too much Knowledge

[Wingflier]

What about a new Guardian that did a HUGE amount of aoe damage but spread it evenly across all ships in its range. So if you have a big army of fleet ships, it doesn't impact you nearly as much as if you simply have a small group of Starships.

OR a Guardian that deals damage based on a ships Resource Costs.

OR a Guardian that deals damage based on energy use.

Any of these Guardians could be a solution to lowering the knowledge costs of Starships to something more reasonable without fear of them becoming overpowered.

[_K_]

Raid starships are awesome, i always buy MKIIs because on 8+ raiding with MKI alone becomes almost impossible.
MKIII raid SS is also viable if there are things worth raiding.

Plasma sieges: they have nice splash damage, making them probably viable as well. I dont pick them due to their low speed though.

Bomber starships: Most useless of all. Could be considered *barely* viable if the AI has some heavy fleet ships unlocked (like spire tractors, or SSB). The  MKIII is not worth the K cost for sure.
One of the problems with bomber SS's is their high speed. Coupled with their inability to target smaller ships, they often get too detached from the main fleet and die too fast.

Leeches: MKI-II are pretty weak due to the MK-based reclaim multipliers, but MKIII makes the full-cap group of leeches very strong.


By the way, do we have fabricators for all those kinds of ships? I think i have only ever seen MKIV bomber.

In fact, what are all the starship fabricators there are? I know of Bomber MKIV, Warbird, and assume there is Beam starship.

Would be nice and interesting to have the Siege MKIV and raid MKIV, as well as the new Spire SS MKIV and Zenith SS MKIV.

[Wingflier]

I know the speed of Bomber Starships is supposed to be an advantage but more often it turns out to be a pain in the ass, lol.

I wish they were more interesting in some way. Literally every other Starship has been changed to do something unique and interesting while being buffed in the process. The Bomber Starship is the same old boring flat damage that can't even target most things.

[TechSY730]

For my opinion on bringing the bomber starship into line with the plasma seige, I say just buff their health some (like buff it from 4.75M to 5.25M for Mk. I, compared to the plasma siege's 5M at Mk. I, scaling up with Mk. of course), and increasing their cap from 4 to 5, and that would be a very simple way to make them on par with some of the other starships. (See http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=3714)

EDIT: Please note that even as they are now, the bomber starship has some of the best DPS of the starships. A single bomber starship even out single target DPSs a single plasma siege starship. So if Kieth doesn't touch their per unit weapon strength, but does increase their cap, their sheer cap DPS may make them stand out some, even if the way their damage mechanics are rather pedestrian.

The new starships are a welcome addition, but feel samey.

I liked it when they were unique. Zenith ships were true fortresses, with high health and dps but critically weak to dps.

Spire craft were ultra long range weapon craft.

They are already getting some of their original uniqueness back, like the Zenith starship line has the best health of what used to be the fleet starship line (though both the bomber and the plasma siege beat them in max HP per unit, which seems strange), and the spire starship has the best damage of the three (again, only the plasma siege and the bomber starships beating it in DPS), and the best range of the all the starships bar the plasma siege.

However, are you suggesting that these relative pros and cons of the zenith and spire starships be exaggerated further?

Hmm, I could see that. Although it is good to see some of these differentiations coming back, they are not all that of a huge difference, especially when comparing cap effectiveness among all the starships.

[chemical_art]

Yeah, I was looking for further differation.

I want the zenith ship to be a moblile fort. make it an intense brawler. But useless against bombers.

Make the zenith ship really long range but not the best dps.

Right now tactically its "build them all, lump together, make it a fleetball." Not a matter of "well if I get zenith ships I need anti bomber abilities...but if I get spire ships I need some close dps..."

[Wingflier]

I do dislike the bonuses of all the battle Starships. We know that bombers are the most overpowered and overused Fleet Ship by far. Give them a nice bonus to Polycrystal instead of Medium, Swarmer or whatever else.

[TechSY730]

I do dislike the bonuses of all the battle Starships. We know that bombers are the most overpowered and overused Fleet Ship by far. Give them a nice bonus to Polycrystal instead of Medium, Swarmer or whatever else.

Polycrystal bonus might be good for the fleet/flag starship line, seeing as the fleet/flag starship line is sort of, kind of like the starship version of the standard fighter line.
EDIT: Wait, they already do. 

Also, the bomber fleet ship being the most useful of the three is less about how good they are as a fleet ship, but more because of the skewed distribution of heavy and ultra-heavy hull types.

[Wingflier]

They do have a Polycrystal bonus? Oops! Lol

Don't forget bomber's ability to kill fortresses. Even if that's the ONLY thing they did you'd still need them if that says anything.

[TechSY730]

They do have a Polycrystal bonus? Oops! Lol

Don't forget bomber's ability to kill fortresses. Even if that's the ONLY thing they did you'd still need them if that says anything.

That falls under a different balance concern.

However, this does bring up a good point. Bomber starships are great at taking on forcefields and fortresses, as in those cases their really good single target DPS can shine.
Still I wouldn't mind some buffs for them.

Like, for example, a cap of Mk. I (mark ONE) will win against an AI superfortress (albeit barely, but they will), but a cap of Mk. I bomber starships will not win (though they will deal some hefty damage before going down).

Now, there are two issues with this. One, polycrystal ships make a, well frankly, stupidly strong counter if a cap of Mk. I (again, mark ONE) bombers can take on a Superfortress (the Mk. V fortress). Two, and more relevantly, why the crud is a cap of Mk. I bomber starships fairing worse than a cap of Mk. I bomber fleet ships?

[chemical_art]

armor?

[TechSY730]

armor?

Not sure what you mean by that question. Of what unit or thing or whatever are you asking about armor-wise?

If it is my matchup thing, then yes I considered the effects of armor, or rather, the reference tab did. That is where I got my matchup determinations.

[chemical_art]

I have heard that in the case of bombers armor makes a big difference, so I was gueesing that superior armor in a bomber starship could make an impact, nothing more.

[Martyn van Buren]

For what it's worth I do find that I build bomber starships early in the game and I have a much clearer idea of what to do with them than leeches or siege; they're definitely useful.  But yeah, I very rarely encounter enough very tough things to want to throw more knowledge at taking them down.  Is the problem that fleet bombers are just too good at their job?  Raid starships too; caps of Mk I and II can take out almost any guard post under a force field faster than bomber starships.

It could also just be a lack of real high-hp targets.  I wonder about people who've dealt with large exos recently --- do you find bomber starships useful when dealing with really hardened AI targets like golems and hunter-killers?

[Wingflier]

I guess the thing for me is that flat DPS doesn't amount to much when you can't hit 75% of the targets in the game.  On paper sure, Bomber Starships look great, but I'd much rather have Siege Starships, whose DPS might be lower, but their aoe attack, engine damage, and shield siege mechanic make them so much more useful in my book.

[chemical_art]

in my games, starhips are the "core" of the fleet. they don't go running around, that's what fleetships do.

As a result, long range ships are great. Short ships like bombers are useless, and not built.