Some Starships cost too much Knowledge

[rabican]

Because of the low range bomber starships and targeting restrictions bomber SS fares poorly in fleetball.

Because of the high speed it fares poorly in fdr.

Because of the polycrystal hull it fares poorly in raiding (and likely does less damage because of no multipliers+ all the other reasons its worse in this than raid SS)  <-- this is till number one use for bomber SS, something where it is greatly inferior to another SS is its main use.

That and bringing some more oomph for fortress killing. Now, would you ever pay knowledge for that, let alone most K out of any ship in the game?

About high hp targets well... you throw everything you got at them anyway, bombers aren't really standing out in that. And likely do worse DPS for point of K spent compared to most things even for that.

Pshaw, why none ever nominates these for worst unit polls is miracle!

About K costs my suggestions :

plasma MK II 5--->4 
            MK III 7 ---> 5,5

bomber MK II -- -> 4
             MK II  -- -> 4

[TechSY730]

Pshaw, why none ever nominates these for worst unit polls is miracle!

I can't speak for others, but here is why I haven't. Despite needing some severe balance work, amazingly there have been other ships that I felt were even worse off.
At least the bomber starships have great single target DPS, even if they don't get many chances to really take advantage of it. There where other ships that were so bad, that even when used in their intended niche, they performed sub-par.

Now that the "worst of the worst" has been taken care of mostly, I will probably nominate bomber starships in the next poll.

[Wingflier]

I will also nominate Bomber Starships along with Raider bonus ships.

[Martyn van Buren]

What is the bomber starship's intended role?

[kasnavada]

Keep in mind, there is no Mk. IV starship fabricator, and as such, Mk. III military starships should have a knowledge cost of less than Mk. III fleet ships.

I'd love to see one though... especially since recent changes to the flagship line made it so there is no reason why this could not be  . Now, every starship has lvl 1-3 much like regular ships do, the step to a level 4 sounds logical. I've not checked, but I was wondering if there was experimental factories for version 5 of all of them ?

Also, if you could add a "spire" enclave (or whatever you like as a name) much like the neinzul enclave, which builds starships instead of ships...

[Martyn van Buren]

Then we'll need suicide starships that explode into clouds of Neinzul nanoswarms...

[keith.lamothe]

Then we'll need suicide starships that explode into clouds of Neinzul nanoswarms...

That made me think of some videos of Touhou play I saw recently.

[Kahuna]

BTW! I forgot the Leech Starship. I think it's also too expensive. Might be better if it cost as much as Riots.

[Hearteater]

On the  Leech Starship: Because of the reclamation multiplier is based on the Mark of the attacker vs Mark of the defender, Mark II and III are much more powerful that number indicate.  If the AI has any ship types you want, upgrading this Starship can pay huge returns.  Just for reference, here are the current K costs:

Starship	I	II	III
Bomber	-	5000	7000
Cloaker	-	1000	1000
Flagship	-	2000	5000
Leech	-	5000	6000
Plasma	-	5000	7000
Raid	-	4000	4000
Riot	-	4000	5000
Spire	1000	2500	6000
Zenith	1000	2500	6000

I think the Bomber III and Plasma III are my biggest issue.  Dropping them to 6k might be enough.  Raid III are actually a bargain at 4k.

[_K_]

That made me think of some videos of Touhou play I saw recently.

On that note, i want curved lasers.

I think the Bomber III and Plasma III are my biggest issue.

Agreed. The rest are fine or close to that. Those two are not the most awesome kinds of starships, yet they cost so much.

And the MKIII starship costs are such that they are quite heavy on the economy. Ah, who am i kidding, not after the recent changes to the harvesters and the energy.

[sol_ilya]

First developers buffed players so 10/10 difficulty became too easier. After players asked to increase difficulty and many features like datacenters and AIP floor that were stable for many months were changed. Now again players are asking to buff their side. Decreasing their cost allows player to have less planets and decreases amount of AI progress players get in a game. This is a run in circles. I think this way of upgrades for game is a wrong way. Such way makes the game only worse.

Consider bombers starships. Try to play game without spire fleet or golems. Without them bomber starship is the most awesome straship in my army. How assualt posts without them? Destroy enemy straships? Try to play without golems - this is completely different game and I guess a lot harder.

[Faulty Logic]

@ sol_ilya
While it is very unlikely that we will ever achieve perfect balance, refusing to try is not optimal.  Every iteration of balance changes gathers more data, and helps us get closer to the goal:

Many different strategies are, on average across all games, roughly equally viable.
There are no no-brainer units, either to buy or to avoid.
10/10 is tantalizingly close to possible.

Presently, most players agree that the higher-mark starships are too expensive relative to other things one could spend knowledge on, and many players never purchase them, and so these units should be buffed, either by increasing their stats, or decreasing their costs.

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I voted for the first option. I like starships, but I can never really justify buying higher marks of raids, leeches, sieges, or bombers. I would certainly like to see these buffed. The best option I have heard so far is to add a Starship IV Factory, or even to allow the normal advanced factory produce starships as well.

Ship: reason I rarely/never buy it.

Raid II/IIIs: I can accomplish their niche with cloakers, transports, and Raid Is.
Bomber II/IIIs: I can always get more power out of unlocking fleetships.
Siege II/IIIs: same as Bombers, because they no longer have exceptional range.
Leech II/IIIs: don't add much to the cap of mkIs.

[Kahuna]

First developers buffed players so 10/10 difficulty became too easier.

What patch was that?

Now again players are asking to buff their side.

I did not make this poll to try to make the game easier or to buff the player. But to make higher marks of Bomber and Plasma Siege Starships useful. At the moment they don't even exist. Well.. they do.. but unlocking them would be waste of knowledge.

Decreasing their cost allows player to have less planets and decreases amount of AI progress players get in a game.

Decreasing their cost does not allow players to have less planets nor decrease the amount of AIP. Decreasing their Knowledge cost doesn't give the player any extra knowledge. Decreasing Bomber and Plasma Siege Starships' Knowledge cost makes unlocking higher Marks of them a viable option.

This is a run in circles. I think this way of upgrades for game is a wrong way. Such way makes the game only worse.

It's not a circle. It's a line. It's not like the same things are being buffed and nerfed over and over again. It's always/mostly a new thing that gets balanced/changed. Imo fixing the problems doesn't makes the game worse.

Consider bombers starships. Try to play game without spire fleet or golems. Without them bomber starship is the most awesome straship in my army. How assualt posts without them? Destroy enemy straships? Try to play without golems - this is completely different game and I guess a lot harder.

Unlocking higher Marks of Bombers is a more viable option than unlocking more Bomber Starships. Vs Heavy, Artillery, Command-Grade, Ultra-Heavy, Structural a cap of MarkI Bombers have almost 2x better dps than a cap of Mark I Bomber Starships. Bombers are also cheaper and unlocking more of them costs less knowledge.
Also fleet ships can destroy guard posts and starships too. Fleet ships are the core. Starships are there to support the main fleet.
If there was no Spirecraft or Golems there wouldn't be Exoglactic Strikeforces. And without Spirecraft and Golems I would have more resources for other things. Being more aggressive and rebuilding my fleet for example.

Also AIP, Spirecraft and Golems are not the only things affecting the difficulty. Few days ago I was surprised how easy (even vs 10/10) disabling all/most of the minor factions and Hybrids made the game.

[_K_]

Yeah.
Most of the buffs affect stuff that has been not used at all in serious games.
The important point with buffing useless stuff is to not overbuff it, make it just a viable option - not the obviously best option.


There has been only a few changes that have buffed the human player in general:
The buff to the resource extractors has made them actually superior to eco stations, giving a nice economic boost.
The energy overhaul gave the players massive energy supply and greatly reduced the resource drain,
The home forcefield buff has made it slightly easier to not lose base stuff.

[chemical_art]

The most majority of bugs and nerfs affect both player and ai.

Yes, there are some that only buff the player. (No upkeep for energy)

But others only hurt the player. (increased repair cost, zombie golem its own minor faction)

In this case, if the buff to the starships is not to decrease their cost but increase their effectiveness, it is just a buff not specific to any one group.