Author Topic: Some Spire help...  (Read 2932 times)

Offline mavorspam

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Some Spire help...
« on: November 23, 2010, 09:46:45 pm »
Hello all. Playing my current campaign and I'm at the point where I've just built a Spire colony ship. I guess I have to build a hub, my question is, once built how do I build more colony ships? Can someone explain a little about how Spire structures work in conjunction with one another? I'm a little confused here and the Wiki doesn't say. Thx.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 09:48:43 pm »
Further colony ships are constructed from shards found later; once you get to 5 cities you'll be able to work up to building your own colony ships.
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 10:13:18 pm »
Why is it that I can't find shards or subspace signals on my own planets and that they are allows two or three hops away?

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 10:15:29 pm »
Pretty sure its intended you have to go into enemy territory for shards.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 10:18:19 pm »
Bingo.  Balance :)
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 12:13:51 am »
Pretty sure its intended you have to go into enemy territory for shards.

Yes, but I wanted to know why because I wasn't around when that decision was made.

Bingo.  Balance :)

Not contesting the way things are but I just want to understand why this is. What does this restriction prevent that is unbalancing? Wouldn't the event waves still come?   ???

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 01:49:28 am »
It would make the spire plot hella easy if it was say a fixed distance from your home station. 

being located x jumps into enemy territory means you have to either secure the route (which costs AIP) or you have to conduct a running fight as the chase units spawn right on top of you. 

if the shards spawned in your territory there'd be virtually no risk. 

I do have to admit i got spectacularly bad luck on one shard just now, one of the hops is adjacent to an AI homeworld with a Core Raid Engine on it. And the other way around is like 8 hops.

*cries*


Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 03:21:23 am »
Pretty sure its intended you have to go into enemy territory for shards.

Yes, but I wanted to know why because I wasn't around when that decision was made.

Bingo.  Balance :)

Not contesting the way things are but I just want to understand why this is. What does this restriction prevent that is unbalancing? Wouldn't the event waves still come?   ???

The so-called decision was made by the developers, I'm almost positive we, the players, were not involved. 

Not that I mind, it makes sense, not everything should be available on our home planet.  Otherwise, it'd just encourage tank-a-thons.

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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 04:05:59 am »
players are very involved in balance discussions - the developers... all two of them cant run QA on a game like this alone. If you are playing the betas, you ARE the quality assurance team! (congrats! join us on irc ;) )
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 08:12:19 am »
Bingo.  Balance :)

I guess the system you get is random, but I got the same system twice (and that made it easier since I had bascially neuterd a path to the shard system already ;) ).
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 08:44:55 am »
Pretty sure its intended you have to go into enemy territory for shards.

Yes, but I wanted to know why because I wasn't around when that decision was made.

Bingo.  Balance :)

Not contesting the way things are but I just want to understand why this is. What does this restriction prevent that is unbalancing? Wouldn't the event waves still come?   ???

The so-called decision was made by the developers, I'm almost positive we, the players, were not involved. 

What an odd thing to say.

Especially as you agree with it!

Offline mavorspam

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 08:55:36 am »
Is there a comprehensive breakdown of Spire ships/structures anywhere? I wouldn't mind reading a bit about the hubs/shards/hab centers/shipyards before I fire up my current campaign. I'm still trying to figure out what to build.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 08:58:42 am »
For each remote signal there's a hardcoded desired-depth-within-AI-territory (2 for the first couple, 3 for the third, 4 for the second-fifth city shard, and I think 6 for the last one, though I had considered just having it always spawn on an AI homeworld).

It then gets a list of all non-AI planets, this is "List 0"

It then gets a list of all planets adjacent to one of those that's not in List 0, this is "List 1" (and is all AI planets)

It then gets a list of all planets adjacent to a planet in List 1 that isn't already in lists 0 or 1.

etc, until it winds up with a list of zero planets because it's already filed them all in some list or another.

I should note that for the first couple signals spawns it refuses to add a mkIV AI world to any list.  And for all signals except the very last one refuses to add a core AI world or AI homeworld to any list (this doesn't mean that your shortest route to a signal won't take you through a planet that wasn't on the list, it just pathed to it a different way).

It then picks the list corresponding to the desired-depth-within-AI-territory.  If there actually are none it checks the next higher list, repeat.  If all the higher lists have zero, it starts at desired-depth minus 1 and checks, going down from there.  It will actually use a planet of depth 0 (non-AI territory) if there are literally no AI planets eligible, like when you're bottlenecked by a mkIV world for one of the first two signals (as Lance discovered).

Anyway, once it has a list, it checks each planet in that list for distance-from-a-human-homeworld, and only considers those with the smallest such distance.  So if the list has 4 planets, with distance-to-human-homeworlds of 4, 4, 7, 12, it will always pick one of the "4"s, randomly between them.   This also means that if somehow List 0 is chosen above, it will always pick a human homeworld.

I should add that the "don't go through a mkIV world on the first 2" rule, the "don't go through an AI core or AI home world on any but the last" rule and the "pick as close to the human homeworlds as you can within the eligible list" rules were all not part of the original design and were added later based on player feedback/suggestions :)

Before anyone asks, yes, this will wind up in the wiki ;)

mavorspam, with regard to your question just now, there is very little if any documentation on the wiki of the Fallen-Spire stuff since I was preserving a bit of anti-spoiler for a while, but now since everything is done aside from balancing it (and hopefully that's come along some way) I'll be trying to work on that today.
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Offline mavorspam

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 09:52:25 am »
Thx Keith.

Offline LintMan

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Re: Some Spire help...
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 09:53:32 am »

I should add that the "don't go through a mkIV world on the first 2" rule, the "don't go through an AI core or AI home world on any but the last" rule and the "pick as close to the human homeworlds as you can within the eligible list" rules were all not part of the original design and were added later based on player feedback/suggestions :)


@Nemo & mavorspam:
FYI, if you look in the notes here, you'll see some more details from Keith.
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1360