Author Topic: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?  (Read 3095 times)

Offline eronrauch

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« on: June 14, 2012, 06:55:55 pm »
Hi! In the midst of all the fun with the Spire Hammer CRE's, Brisebonbons and I realized we had a question about the what ships the AI gets. Based on the ARCEN wiki, it says:

"Which ships are unlocked here are based mainly off the map seed (with the added requirement that it not have already been unlocked by the AI team, of course), which again is the same as how the Advanced Research Stations work for the human team." (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Techs#Bonus_Ship_Types_For_AI)

That said, we've found that that in the last 10+ games the AI always gets [and abuses] Spire Stealth Battleships. Which are my most hated unit at the moment.

Are the AI ship unlocks pure RNG as the wiki suggests, or since it's almost a year old, is there some underlying code mechanism for choosing "strong" ships?

Sorry if this an obvious question, but I'm still very new at the game and I'm trying to understand how the AI works. Thanks!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 07:40:31 pm »
Are you playing on the same map seed? If so, chances are that the AI will get the same unlocks.

Offline eronrauch

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 10:50:57 pm »
Tech — We're using a new random seed each time. It could just be bad RNG, but I was just curious to see if there were any mroe nefarious mechanics at play here.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 11:30:16 pm »
It is entirely possible that Spire Hammer AI always gets Spire Stealth Battleships.  Both the Stealth Master AI and Spireling would as well.

Offline Bognor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 11:55:08 pm »
I've found Spire Maw + Spirecraft Jumpship to be the ultimate counter to Spire Stealth Battleships.  A Maw can swallow a Battleship whole.  Gotta make sure it's not tractored, though.
Your computer can help defeat malaria!
Please visit the World Community Grid to find out how.

Offline eronrauch

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 01:04:10 am »
Thanks for the thoughts — I guess this has been a case of the nefarious RNG. /furlscloak. Last game was a Spire Hammer & Special Forces Captain. I'll bet if I looked, many of the last games I've played  have had Spireling or Stealth Master.

I've always just gotten Military Orbital Command III since without stealth, they can't slowly build up large numbers by hanging at the edge of the gravity well on a player world — Which is what I find makes them rather unbalanced. It's when both AI's have them, and able to put 10 or 20, esp IIs, IIIs & IVs slowly hiding themselves at a world, then popping out at once on a random orbital command force fields in your backfield that is the problem. With 7.7 mil HP per ship just at mk IV (and ONLY 5.7 mil hp at mk III), if you get caps of 8 mk IVs and 8 mkIIIs cold chillin' somewhere around 5 planets deep, there is a really solid chance that the instant you look away, because you've got a wave elsewhere, or your tea is done steeping, or your cat is biting your foot,  they'll burn down a force field before your static defenses can churn through that massive HP pool (107.2 mil total for just the mk 3 & 4 units!) Which means always having to keep a real chunk of fleet behind to smack these jerks down.

That said, my question still stands — is the ARCEN wiki article correct that aside from initial bonus ships etc., the further unlocks are purely based on map seed?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 01:11:06 am by eronrauch »

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 02:36:39 am »
That said, my question still stands — is the ARCEN wiki article correct that aside from initial bonus ships etc., the further unlocks are purely based on map seed?

Yes.  Initial bonus ships are chosen by AI type.  Unlocks are random from whatever's left based on seed.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Bognor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 04:37:58 am »
Thanks for the thoughts — I guess this has been a case of the nefarious RNG. /furlscloak. Last game was a Spire Hammer & Special Forces Captain. I'll bet if I looked, many of the last games I've played  have had Spireling or Stealth Master.

I've always just gotten Military Orbital Command III since without stealth, they can't slowly build up large numbers by hanging at the edge of the gravity well on a player world — Which is what I find makes them rather unbalanced. It's when both AI's have them, and able to put 10 or 20, esp IIs, IIIs & IVs slowly hiding themselves at a world, then popping out at once on a random orbital command force fields in your backfield that is the problem. With 7.7 mil HP per ship just at mk IV (and ONLY 5.7 mil hp at mk III), if you get caps of 8 mk IVs and 8 mkIIIs cold chillin' somewhere around 5 planets deep, there is a really solid chance that the instant you look away, because you've got a wave elsewhere, or your tea is done steeping, or your cat is biting your foot,  they'll burn down a force field before your static defenses can churn through that massive HP pool (107.2 mil total for just the mk 3 & 4 units!) Which means always having to keep a real chunk of fleet behind to smack these jerks down.
Spirecraft Attritioners will stop ships lurking indefinitely on your worlds, though I guess high-mark SSBs could last a very long time.  Another thing you could consider is only having 5 of your Mil III command stations permanently used.  The last one is so you can bring your fleet to a planet with lurking cloakers, then replace the local command station with a Mil III, destroy the lurkers, and replace the original command station.  Swapping command stations like this is practical because reactors, harvesters, and supply are only lost if a command station is actually destroyed - they're retained if a command station just self-destructs because you're building a new one.
Your computer can help defeat malaria!
Please visit the World Community Grid to find out how.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 09:32:15 am »
Tech — We're using a new random seed each time. It could just be bad RNG, but I was just curious to see if there were any mroe nefarious mechanics at play here.

Sorry, but that is something that took me a moment to realize when I first started playing. It never hurts to cover the basics. :)

It may just of been the RNG "hating" you. It happens to all of us. While the AI choosing the same ship sometime in the game 10 times in a row is unlikely, it is still possible, and you just happened to be the "lucky" person to see it. ;)

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 02:16:41 pm »
I've always just gotten Military Orbital Command III since without stealth, they can't slowly build up large numbers by hanging at the edge of the gravity well on a player world — Which is what I find makes them rather unbalanced.

The AI being a bit too conservative with cloaked ship on human planets is a pretty old complaint actually. (See http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,7964.0.html for a discussion about this, among other things related to decloaking). No word yet about ways to make this AI behavior less unreasonable without straight up making them dumber.
Also, cloaked zombies are currently having broken behavior (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6643)

Offline Brise Bonbons

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: How does the AI choose ship unlocks?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 03:24:52 pm »
I can confirm that we are using different map seeds (as I typically click the "new map seed" button compulsively while setting up games), but I think we've seen a lot of the stealth master and spireling lately. So much so that we've started just picking AI types instead of leaving it to the RNG.

As to dealing with Spire Stealth Battleships, I find that judicious use of gravity and tachyon turrets is enough to make me comfortable. I do hate trying to reveal the one or two that wind up lurking in systems with scouts, though. I've taken to just hitting worlds with tachyon warheads to save time and energy - the AIP hit is worth it for me.  :P