So, what's standing between the current version and something official-ready?

[Faulty Logic]

If all you had to do was destroy an AI Command Station, then I'd be less opposed.

That was what I meant. Sorry I was unclear.

In any case, can the conversation move to a new thread? It is getting to be a sufficiently complicated topic to merit it.

Here you go.

[Kahuna]

AIs reaction to knowledge hacking needs some serious nerfing.

[Bognor]

On the original topic, I see AI War as a superbly balanced, incredibly intricate, infinitely customisable game with enough depth to keep the vets happy for millenia.  So I'd suggest focusing on things that will improve the experience for newbies.  You've already mentioned the tutorial, but another thing is updating the wiki regarding some of the more complex or recently-updated game mechanics, such as Special Forces, the Strategic Reserve, threat behavior, focused reinforcements, the effect of ingress point number on waves, and the effect of neutering planets (wormhole and other guard posts) on reinforcement volume and planet capacity.  Actually I guess the wiki can wait until after release, but it may be worth addressing anything on Mantis that would especially impact newbies.  I just reported this which could terribly confuse a newbie.  At the risk of pimping my own reports, a lot of this is most relevant to newbies, and this idea was proposed with newbies in mind (and did well in the 6.0 poll).

[Wanderer]

AIs reaction to knowledge hacking needs some serious nerfing.

At what level?  One of the reasons hacking was even introduced was to curb excessive K-Raiding... and that's partially my fault.  If you're saying at 7/8 you can't get a world or two in, then yes, it needs to be examined.  If you're saying at 9+ more than two worlds will try to kill you... well.. you're right, that's the point.

[chemical_art]

I think it should somehow be possible that the champion's building of modules should be a priority for engineers.

[chemical_art]

There definitely needs to be some check to prevent a single HW game with champion.

I just won a 9/9 game where I claimed two worlds. I never did claim the worlds, just took them so I wouldn't deep with deep strike threat as I attacked the HW.

The combination of resources, energy, support units, and a powerful champion makes me start to think you NEED to have a hard rule about it.

The temptation is just too strong to go low aip and smash the HW with your battleship and champs. I'm say this as the guy who loves FS and even had the option on in my game.

I kept thinking "I COULD face 10x the ai response for 10x the strength...but I have enough strength to smash the ai now!" after my 10th nebula.

Since I took 2 worlds just to avoid the deepstrike, I now realize it is not a good check. Even having two worlds soley for avoiding deepstrike I still found the single occupied world (homeworld) to be best.

[Cinth]

The cheese will find a way?

[orzelek]

There definitely needs to be some check to prevent a single HW game with champion.

Hmmm why would you remove most popular variant probably?

I don't think many people would go cheesing it that badly... but there are always some extremes. Removing possible choice doesn't seem to be best solution to problem.

Just add something to prevent the cheese. I'm also assuming you played with no CSG - maybe make them mandatory for champion games?

[Winge]

There definitely needs to be some check to prevent a single HW game with champion.

Hmmm why would you remove most popular variant probably?

I don't think many people would go cheesing it that badly... but there are always some extremes. Removing possible choice doesn't seem to be best solution to problem.

Just add something to prevent the cheese. I'm also assuming you played with no CSG - maybe make them mandatory for champion games?

Definitely no CSGs if he never tried to cap a planet.

Actually, that brings up a idea:  what about having CSGs block the Nebula Wormhole their planet is on?  You wouldn't eat a ton of AIP early, as most of the CSGs are linked, but they are still targets you have to take (and are you really going to complain about capturing an ARS world?  ).  Those who oppose it and want to play "Champion DoTA" can simply disable CSGs.

[chemical_art]

There definitely needs to be some check to prevent a single HW game with champion.

Hmmm why would you remove most popular variant probably?

I don't think many people would go cheesing it that badly... but there are always some extremes. Removing possible choice doesn't seem to be best solution to problem.

Just add something to prevent the cheese. I'm also assuming you played with no CSG - maybe make them mandatory for champion games?

Definitely no CSGs if he never tried to cap a planet.

Actually, that brings up a idea:  what about having CSGs block the Nebula Wormhole their planet is on?  You wouldn't eat a ton of AIP early, as most of the CSGs are linked, but they are still targets you have to take (and are you really going to complain about capturing an ARS world?  ).  Those who oppose it and want to play "Champion DoTA" can simply disable CSGs.

The problem is CSG's and champions are independent. You can always turn one on but the other off.

I'm the guy who hates CSG's with a passion for I feel they are arbitrary.

I have always argued that the ai response to champions should not be multiplicative, but additive. It makes the single HW games far to easy, and punishes high aip games far too hard.

If you make it additive, then there would not nearly be as much incentive to pursue ultra low aip games, as it would stomp that strategy hardest while not hurting other strategies relatively as hard.

[chemical_art]

It's the same reason why for FS you can't build a city if you haven't popped a CSG. Some just don't like the concept. You need to make the checks be within the game mode so you can't avoid it.

If I cheesed it by throwing the free champion to defeat HW's, then I am pristine cheese in its simplicity. I simply didn't feel a need to take worlds, since I didn't need either energy or resources or knowledge. My BB could take enemy HWs with its guards (and that wraith lance nasty pick post I could ONLY defeat with my spire BB guardpost killer. I wonder how others have taken down such a post. It seems made to only be killed by super weapons.)

That does bring me to another point though: The wraith lance hurts so much, and its attacks can only be avoided at close range, that it seems made to only be countered by superweapons. Depending on its placement, ANY unit wishing to hurt it aside from teleporters has to surive two sweeps of its weapons, and only defensive battleship champions or better can do so. Combine that with its high health and it acts more effectively then an ai eye: Only the single mightiest of units can take it down.

[Dichotomy]

Pinwheels of doom? Minirams, IREs, polarizers, bombers. Lots of them, in multiple waves.

[chemical_art]

Pinwheels of doom? Minirams, IREs, polarizers, bombers. Lots of them, in multiple waves.

In my tests, they all died on the first sweep due to its damage. They couldn't get close enough to harm its 50 million beams which in practice dish out over 10 million per sweep at mid range.

[Dichotomy]

Delivered to right next the pinwheel by cloaked transports, I forgot to add. Deactivate the cloakers, then the transports will be unloaded by the wrath beams, and your fleet should get a few volleys off.

[TechSY730]

If I cheesed it by throwing the free champion to defeat HW's, then I am pristine cheese in its simplicity. I simply didn't feel a need to take worlds, since I didn't need either energy or resources or knowledge. My BB could take enemy HWs with its guards (and that wraith lance nasty pick post I could ONLY defeat with my spire BB guardpost killer. I wonder how others have taken down such a post. It seems made to only be killed by super weapons.)

One of the reasons why I suggested in the other thread some sort of "exp-defense fund" if champions are around, that increases in cap (and maybe a small immediate boost as well) as number of completed nebulas goes up (and would also go up as number of champions goes up). It wouldn't be as intense as the fallen spire exo-defense fund until the later stages of the champion progression, but it would hinder early game rushes with the champion from making the homeworlds a pushover.

The question about how it fills this fund up is an interesting question though. I was thinking that it would fill up in a similar way that the "core defense response" things fill up, just some contribution every now and then.